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He migrated his site ot Hugo: https://chriswiegman.com/2024/10/this-site-now-runs-on-hugo/ https://chriswiegman.com/2024/10/this-site-now-runs-on-hugo/ I can

by pier25 2y ago

He migrated his site ot Hugo: https://chriswiegman.com/2024/10/this-site-now-runs-on-hugo/ https://chriswiegman.com/2024/10/this-site-now-runs-on-hugo/ I can understand WP for non-technical users but I'm still amazed at web dev teams still not using static sites for blogs and marketing sites.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
TIPSIO 2y ago
Usually it comes down: - easy client login for template tweaks, uploads, and redirects - forms - extremely minor server-side functionality thing WordPress is perfect for this.
- sroerick 2y ago
  “Extremely minor server-side functionality thing” is where SSGs fail miserably. All of a sudden you’re using SaaS forms or whatever else, or your self hosting some other tremendously inferior CMS and your margins go out the window. Wordpress killer that accomplishes these things you mentioned would interest me. Statamic looks interesting in this context but it wasn’t super well formed 4 years ago when I dug deep into this ecosystem
  - amluto 2y ago
    20 years ago, CGI covered this use case pretty well. I wonder if anyone has tried to make a modern equivalent. Maybe something along the line of a Cloudflare Worker (but using the open source stack) or possibly something minimal and flexible based on WASM or JS that could be invoked from different servers could work.
    - sroerick 2y ago
      CGI / PHP is really not a bad way to work in 2024, even though I was traumatized by PHP in my early days. I’ve only experimented with it though, I think it would be hard to maintain at scale, and I’ve heard there are not insignificant security concerns. It’s a lot easier to hire somebody to maintain a Wordpress install than it is to mess with Apache or PHP. When I figured out that Wordpress literally is executing every piece of PHP every time the site loads it was kind of a “woah” moment for me Interesting idea with the Cloudflare thing
      - amluto 2y ago
        A problem with Wordpress and with most CGI setups is that there is no privilege separation between the script and anything else on the site. It would be nice to let individual pieces of server side script be deployed such that they can only access their own resources. I don’t think Cloudflare workers, as deployed by Cloudflare, really tick that box either. Some of the university “scripts” systems, with CGI backed by AFS, came kind of close.
        kentonv 2y ago
        > I don’t think Cloudflare workers, as deployed by Cloudflare, really tick that box either. They mostly do. You can map different Workers to different paths in your site. A Worker can only access the resources it is explicitly bound to. E.g. if you create a KV namespace for storage, a worker can only access that namespace if you configure it with a "binding" (a capability in an environment variable) pointing at the KV namespace. Workers on your account without the binding cannot access the KV namespace at all. Some more on the philosophy in this blog post: https://blog.cloudflare.com/workers-environment-live-object-bindings/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/workers-environment-live-object-... There are a couple of caveats that exist for legacy reasons, but that I'd like to fix, eventually: * The HTTP cache is zone-scoped. Two workers running on the same zone (domain name) can poison each others' cache via the Cache API. TBH I want to rip out the whole Cache API and replace it with something entirely different, it is a bit of a mess (partly the spec's fault, partly our implementation's fault). * Origin servers are also zone-scoped. All workers running on a zone are able to send requests directly to the zone's origin server (without going back through Cloudflare's security checks). We're working on introducing an "origin binding" instead, and creating a compat flag that forces `fetch()` to always go back to the "front door" even when fetching from the same zone. Note that if you want to safely run code from third parties that could be outright malicious, you can use Workers for Platforms: https://developers.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-for-platforms/workers-for-platforms/ https://developers.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-for-platforms/w... (I'm the tech lead of Cloudflare Workers.) (EDIT: lol wrote this without reading your username. Hi, Andy!)
        amluto 2y ago
  - pier25 2y ago
    > is where SSGs fail miserably It's trivial to bundle and deploy some server-side code with a static site on Vercel, Cloudflare, Firebase, or Netlify. Usually you simply create a /functions directory wth your JS code and that's it.
sroerick 2y ago
Former webdev, so don’t really understand the industry too well, but my sense is that Wordpress is the lowest hanging fruit if you need customer facing CMS, or e-commerce, or any number of other plug and play features. Hugo might be easier as long as there’s no customer facing CMS, but as soon as you introduce that back into the mix it’s significantly worse. I heard if one shop using CraftCMS successfully but they weren’t really super content forward. Thus, to cover the spectrum of needs, it just makes sense to have a Wordpress stack - one team of developers, on team of technologies. Hugo is great, but I haven’t used it a ton. For a lone wolf dev maintaining a personal site, probably the way to go. I built some sites with Gatsby and having to do Node updates was actually way worse than Wordpress updates, and required a much higher skill level to accomplish.
- pier25 2y ago
  With most static hosting services you can simply deploy a folder named /functions alongside your static files and that's pretty much all you need to run server-side JS.
  - sroerick 2y ago
    Sure, but you don’t really have read/write capability. As an example, I set up an e-commerce store on Gatsby using server side JS, but I was reliant on the hosted Stripe product CMS API, which ultimately wasn’t a great user or development experience
    - pier25 2y ago
      > Sure, but you don’t really have read/write capability Not sure what you mean. You can use any DB you like. There are even storage services like CF Workers KV if you don't need relations etc.
      - sroerick 2y ago
        Is anybody really doing CRUD with SSGs? I would think surely not… but I’m happy to be corrected
odo1242 2y ago
The thing is that websites often need to be accessible to more than developers. If your company has to get a developer involved every time whey want to change a word on the site (don’t expect the person who wants to change the website to know HTML or Markdown templates), progress gets slowed down quite a bit.
ikety 2y ago
Well you're gonna want CMS anyways right? Why not go full WordPress and give your non-technical users even more agency. It's pretty hard for them to cause harm in this scenario.
- pier25 2y ago
  In my experience when a company has an in-house web dev team everyone avoids using the CMS as much as possible.

by pier25 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

TIPSIO 2y ago

Usually it comes down: - easy client login for template tweaks, uploads, and redirects - forms - extremely minor server-side functionality thing WordPress is perfect for this.

sroerick 2y ago
“Extremely minor server-side functionality thing” is where SSGs fail miserably. All of a sudden you’re using SaaS forms or whatever else, or your self hosting some other tremendously inferior CMS and your margins go out the window. Wordpress killer that accomplishes these things you mentioned would interest me. Statamic looks interesting in this context but it wasn’t super well formed 4 years ago when I dug deep into this ecosystem
- amluto 2y ago
  20 years ago, CGI covered this use case pretty well. I wonder if anyone has tried to make a modern equivalent. Maybe something along the line of a Cloudflare Worker (but using the open source stack) or possibly something minimal and flexible based on WASM or JS that could be invoked from different servers could work.
  - sroerick 2y ago
    CGI / PHP is really not a bad way to work in 2024, even though I was traumatized by PHP in my early days. I’ve only experimented with it though, I think it would be hard to maintain at scale, and I’ve heard there are not insignificant security concerns. It’s a lot easier to hire somebody to maintain a Wordpress install than it is to mess with Apache or PHP. When I figured out that Wordpress literally is executing every piece of PHP every time the site loads it was kind of a “woah” moment for me Interesting idea with the Cloudflare thing
    - amluto 2y ago
      A problem with Wordpress and with most CGI setups is that there is no privilege separation between the script and anything else on the site. It would be nice to let individual pieces of server side script be deployed such that they can only access their own resources. I don’t think Cloudflare workers, as deployed by Cloudflare, really tick that box either. Some of the university “scripts” systems, with CGI backed by AFS, came kind of close.
      - kentonv 2y ago
        > I don’t think Cloudflare workers, as deployed by Cloudflare, really tick that box either. They mostly do. You can map different Workers to different paths in your site. A Worker can only access the resources it is explicitly bound to. E.g. if you create a KV namespace for storage, a worker can only access that namespace if you configure it with a "binding" (a capability in an environment variable) pointing at the KV namespace. Workers on your account without the binding cannot access the KV namespace at all. Some more on the philosophy in this blog post: https://blog.cloudflare.com/workers-environment-live-object-bindings/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/workers-environment-live-object-... There are a couple of caveats that exist for legacy reasons, but that I'd like to fix, eventually: * The HTTP cache is zone-scoped. Two workers running on the same zone (domain name) can poison each others' cache via the Cache API. TBH I want to rip out the whole Cache API and replace it with something entirely different, it is a bit of a mess (partly the spec's fault, partly our implementation's fault). * Origin servers are also zone-scoped. All workers running on a zone are able to send requests directly to the zone's origin server (without going back through Cloudflare's security checks). We're working on introducing an "origin binding" instead, and creating a compat flag that forces `fetch()` to always go back to the "front door" even when fetching from the same zone. Note that if you want to safely run code from third parties that could be outright malicious, you can use Workers for Platforms: https://developers.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-for-platforms/workers-for-platforms/ https://developers.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-for-platforms/w... (I'm the tech lead of Cloudflare Workers.) (EDIT: lol wrote this without reading your username. Hi, Andy!)
        amluto 2y ago
- pier25 2y ago
  > is where SSGs fail miserably It's trivial to bundle and deploy some server-side code with a static site on Vercel, Cloudflare, Firebase, or Netlify. Usually you simply create a /functions directory wth your JS code and that's it.

sroerick 2y ago

Former webdev, so don’t really understand the industry too well, but my sense is that Wordpress is the lowest hanging fruit if you need customer facing CMS, or e-commerce, or any number of other plug and play features. Hugo might be easier as long as there’s no customer facing CMS, but as soon as you introduce that back into the mix it’s significantly worse. I heard if one shop using CraftCMS successfully but they weren’t really super content forward. Thus, to cover the spectrum of needs, it just makes sense to have a Wordpress stack - one team of developers, on team of technologies. Hugo is great, but I haven’t used it a ton. For a lone wolf dev maintaining a personal site, probably the way to go. I built some sites with Gatsby and having to do Node updates was actually way worse than Wordpress updates, and required a much higher skill level to accomplish.

pier25 2y ago
With most static hosting services you can simply deploy a folder named /functions alongside your static files and that's pretty much all you need to run server-side JS.
- sroerick 2y ago
  Sure, but you don’t really have read/write capability. As an example, I set up an e-commerce store on Gatsby using server side JS, but I was reliant on the hosted Stripe product CMS API, which ultimately wasn’t a great user or development experience
  - pier25 2y ago
    > Sure, but you don’t really have read/write capability Not sure what you mean. You can use any DB you like. There are even storage services like CF Workers KV if you don't need relations etc.
    - sroerick 2y ago
      Is anybody really doing CRUD with SSGs? I would think surely not… but I’m happy to be corrected

odo1242 2y ago

The thing is that websites often need to be accessible to more than developers. If your company has to get a developer involved every time whey want to change a word on the site (don’t expect the person who wants to change the website to know HTML or Markdown templates), progress gets slowed down quite a bit.

ikety 2y ago

Well you're gonna want CMS anyways right? Why not go full WordPress and give your non-technical users even more agency. It's pretty hard for them to cause harm in this scenario.

pier25 2y ago
In my experience when a company has an in-house web dev team everyone avoids using the CMS as much as possible.