4 ms·

We hear this a lot and somehow feel it's true but there are no reliable metrics and little verifiable data so ultimately it's just talk.

omgsean 14y ago
Agreed, I'm getting kind of sick of these articles. It's like if the developer community here started posting fluff pieces about how you need to use the best programming languages and the most optimized frameworks. Maybe I'm out of step with the recruiting community but are there people who are sitting around going "let's round up some really mediocre candidates?"
- yen223 14y ago
  [Maybe I'm out of step with the recruiting community but are there people who are sitting around going "let's round up some really mediocre candidates?"] There are a lot of people going "let's round up the cheapest candidates we can find". Said cheap developers will eventually wind up costing the company more than they make back.
- PakG1 14y ago
  When you just need some CRUD stuff made in various spots of your big company, mediocre will be just fine. Yes, there are people who are sitting around doing this.
ShirtlessRod 14y ago
Hire the best programmers? Why didn't I think of that?
- fooooobar 14y ago
  Because you obviously aren't an A programmer. :P
state 14y ago
I agree. The more that this sentiment gets institutionalized the less value it has. Statements without a clear counterargument are always bothersome. Would someone like to make the argument for hiring B developers to build a great product? Jobs is great, but this is exactly the kind of quoting that I find really boring and annoying. As a side note, it looks like that video is also available on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nMD6sjAe8I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nMD6sjAe8I
- PakG1 14y ago
  Would someone like to make the argument for hiring B developers to build a great product? Are you offering that as a poor example of a counterargument? Because I think it's countering the wrong argument here. His point is not to hire A players because A players make great products. His point is that A players in software development are unexpectedly significantly better than average players, when comparing to A players and average players in other industries. As such, anyone who is able to attract and work with A players in software development get an inordinate advantage over the competition. I think the key word that defines his intentions is inordinate. If you can't work with A players, you may have already lost.
- benlakey 14y ago
  That's not the same video. It's a different interview entirely, from many many many years prior to the one referenced.
tensor 14y ago
I would love to see some objective evidence on the distribution of productivity among programmers. Is the distribution really so skewed? Further, if the distribution really is very skewed and A players are rare, then I would put forth that the A players are vastly underpaid. Putting aside the productivity arguments, talking about the immense value you place on your employees while (possibly) conspiring with your competitors to keep salaries low is awfully unethical. [1] [1] http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-20/tech/30645933_1_employees-techcrunch-doj http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-20/tech/30645933...
- Rhino55 14y ago
  Yes, some programmers are billionaires, and some are not. This is direct, objective evidence of the distribution of productivity among programmers.
lollancf37 14y ago
Thank you.
suresk 14y ago
The first rule of Rockstar Developer Club is that you always talk about Rockstar Developer Club. It certainly seems like there is an element of truth to the numbers, but I think they tend to be both drastically overstated (there are fewer cases where there is a drastic difference and/or the difference doesn't matter) and drastically understated (there are cases where one developer can accomplish something that another simply can't, making the difference infinite). So much time is spent trying to point out and quantify this difference, often in an implicitly self-congratulatory manner, and I think it would be better off spending that energy on: 1) Figuring out how to quantify developer skill, or at least come up with roughly accurate ways to determine whether or not a developer is appropriate for a given task. We, as an industry, are pretty bad at this. 2) Figure out ways to move more developers from the B & C camps into the A camp, insofar as we can actually identify those distinct camps.

omgsean 14y ago

Agreed, I'm getting kind of sick of these articles. It's like if the developer community here started posting fluff pieces about how you need to use the best programming languages and the most optimized frameworks. Maybe I'm out of step with the recruiting community but are there people who are sitting around going "let's round up some really mediocre candidates?"

yen223 14y ago
[Maybe I'm out of step with the recruiting community but are there people who are sitting around going "let's round up some really mediocre candidates?"] There are a lot of people going "let's round up the cheapest candidates we can find". Said cheap developers will eventually wind up costing the company more than they make back.
PakG1 14y ago
When you just need some CRUD stuff made in various spots of your big company, mediocre will be just fine. Yes, there are people who are sitting around doing this.

ShirtlessRod 14y ago

Hire the best programmers? Why didn't I think of that?

fooooobar 14y ago
Because you obviously aren't an A programmer. :P

state 14y ago

I agree. The more that this sentiment gets institutionalized the less value it has. Statements without a clear counterargument are always bothersome. Would someone like to make the argument for hiring B developers to build a great product? Jobs is great, but this is exactly the kind of quoting that I find really boring and annoying. As a side note, it looks like that video is also available on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nMD6sjAe8I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nMD6sjAe8I

PakG1 14y ago
Would someone like to make the argument for hiring B developers to build a great product? Are you offering that as a poor example of a counterargument? Because I think it's countering the wrong argument here. His point is not to hire A players because A players make great products. His point is that A players in software development are unexpectedly significantly better than average players, when comparing to A players and average players in other industries. As such, anyone who is able to attract and work with A players in software development get an inordinate advantage over the competition. I think the key word that defines his intentions is inordinate. If you can't work with A players, you may have already lost.
benlakey 14y ago
That's not the same video. It's a different interview entirely, from many many many years prior to the one referenced.

tensor 14y ago

I would love to see some objective evidence on the distribution of productivity among programmers. Is the distribution really so skewed? Further, if the distribution really is very skewed and A players are rare, then I would put forth that the A players are vastly underpaid. Putting aside the productivity arguments, talking about the immense value you place on your employees while (possibly) conspiring with your competitors to keep salaries low is awfully unethical. [1] [1] http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-20/tech/30645933_1_employees-techcrunch-doj http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-20/tech/30645933...

Rhino55 14y ago
Yes, some programmers are billionaires, and some are not. This is direct, objective evidence of the distribution of productivity among programmers.

lollancf37 14y ago

Thank you.

suresk 14y ago

The first rule of Rockstar Developer Club is that you always talk about Rockstar Developer Club. It certainly seems like there is an element of truth to the numbers, but I think they tend to be both drastically overstated (there are fewer cases where there is a drastic difference and/or the difference doesn't matter) and drastically understated (there are cases where one developer can accomplish something that another simply can't, making the difference infinite). So much time is spent trying to point out and quantify this difference, often in an implicitly self-congratulatory manner, and I think it would be better off spending that energy on: 1) Figuring out how to quantify developer skill, or at least come up with roughly accurate ways to determine whether or not a developer is appropriate for a given task. We, as an industry, are pretty bad at this. 2) Figure out ways to move more developers from the B & C camps into the A camp, insofar as we can actually identify those distinct camps.