13 ms·

Gates: Apple may have to make a Surface-like device

24 points by pohl 14y ago

zanny 14y ago
What about the Transformer Infinity? You know, it is basically the surface.. coming out this month... running android. Go write apps for it. I plan to after I pick one up, it looks awesome.
- astrodust 14y ago
  You know, more people would write apps for it if more people owned one, and more people would own one if there were more apps for it. This is the harsh reality of the game Google's committed to playing. Their advertising-first, developers-second model isn't helping either.
stevenleeg 14y ago
The title of this is a bit sensational. Gates only said that it was a "strong possibility" that Apple would have to do something similar to the "no compromise" strategy of the Surface.
- Herring 14y ago
  The whole article was mocking Gates, and not very subtly either.
glesica 14y ago
Why? Seriously. What has he seen in the market for devices over the past 15-20 years that makes him think that? Yes, there has been a trend toward consolidating devices (PDA and camera functions being subsumed by the cell phone, for instance). But there's a huge difference between that and converging a tablet with a laptop: the differences between tablets and laptops are largely form, not function. You couldn't take a photo on a Palm Pilot or early cell phone. You just couldn't do it. You needed a standalone camera. Enter the camera phone. Suddenly you could take a photo on a cell phone. In addition, you could send the pictures you took to other people as you took them, something you couldn't do before at all! So once the quality of the phone cameras hit a certain point, people started relying on them and convergence had happened. How would the laptop and tablet naturally converge for "normal" users? What can one device do that the other can't, and what could a converged device do that neither of the individual devices can? Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see it. Disclaimer: I think the Surface looks pretty bad-ass and I'm thrilled to see MS calling out the OEMs for releasing an endless parade of vision-killing crap.
- tikhonj 14y ago
  I don't know. I imagine it's like this: you want a tablet for lounging on your couch and watching movies or browsing the internet; you want a light laptop for doing actual work at Starbucks or your local library. You could get an iPad and an MBA, or you could just get a Surface and have both in one. So it's not really some new capability--rather, it's a single device that can do the job of two. Not only is this more cheaper but it is also more convenient: you don't have to sync your files between devices or keep track of two different computers (with different operating systems, at that!); you can just use your single Windows computer for both tasks. I think the slightly odd design of Windows 8 is actually very conducive to this: for lounging around, you have Metro and for actual work you have the classic desktop. I could certainly see people currently on Windows liking that. Now, I don't know if the Surface actually fulfills that role in practice, but that's what I imagine the idea to be. I also suspect that this isn't aimed at Apple customers at all--the person getting the iPad and MBA would still get them out of brand loyalty. Rather, this is aimed at your stalwart Windows user who is considering getting an iPad but isn't crazy about Apple and wouldn't want to switch to OS X. On a completely unrelated note, I would love to get one and run Linux. Unfortunately, it seems there is going to be a lot of useless nonsense around secure boot that would make this difficult (at least for the ARM version). But I think this is the perfect device to play around with the new KDE touch interface.
  - DeepDuh 14y ago
    One aspect that's absolutely critical for tablets is weight. As an example, the weight difference of the iPad2 vs iPad1 makes a huge difference for me - only the latter allows me to hold it for longer periods without getting tired. The advantages you describe are IMO only applicable for Win x86 tablets - and those will be either underpowered, undercharged or too heavy to compete with the iPad-experience when it comes to just consuming media on your couch. Sure, the two device categories are closing up and will likely merge at some point in the future - but the hardware is not there yet for doing everything without serious concessions.
- wcchandler 14y ago
  I think the only way this is possible is if we invent a new HID... something that will turn the mouse, keyboard and touchpad into something obsolete. In this realm we have a couple contenders which can mostly be seen in Google Glass. Eye tracking, voice commands, motion capturing... All of which is easily many years away from any real world use or adoption. As such, the only way for these devices to converge would be to totally change the game. (s/HID/output device/ and most of the arguments still hold true)
jsz0 14y ago
I assume he means something like the Surface Pro? I don't think we'll see anything like that from Apple until the weight issues are resolved. The MS Surface Pro is 2 pounds. The original iPad at 1.5 pounds was pushing the limits of what most people found acceptable for a device you might hold for a long period of time. Even the small weight difference between the 2nd and 3rd generation iPads is noticeable. Now add more than half a pound to that weight and you're holding a boat anchor. Microsoft seems to think that perhaps a device like the Surface Pro is a better value than two separate devices. I can't see how that would be true. You end up with half a laptop and a tablet too heavy to actually use as a tablet. Two devices cost more but are actually a better value because they can both be very good devices.
- frugalfirbolg 14y ago
  Hmm, I use a Lenovo X220 convertible as a tablet for extended periods with little fatigue. It weighs 3.88 lbs. I've also used the IBM T60 tablet. I'll admit that the iPad's lightness is a nice feature, but not a necessity. Also, I am not a power lifter, and for comparison my little sister has also used these form factors and carries a 17" MacBook Pro at 6.66 lbs. My point is that for some people this is a viable form factor. My primary concern about the Surface Pro is cooling since it doesn't appear to have fans and the last batch of Ivy Bridge CPUs were using some questionable heat compound between the die and outer casing. I also wonder if it will be capable of delivering reasonable performance with applications such as Photoshop or run a WAMP server and IDE at the same time.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    Microsoft's track record with cooling is far from flawless if the gigantically expensive Xbox 360 recall is any indication. I really wonder if they can tame the heat problem in the device using current-spec chips, or they're going to stall until Intel's 2013 chips hit and they have more margin.
fchollet 14y ago
I believe Tim Cook has already stated very clearly to the press that Apple will NOT be making any laptop/tablet hybrid. At this point a change of direction seems unlikely.
- noamsml 14y ago
  Apple always denies they will make things -- until they do.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    This is what drives the rumors wild. The stronger they deny it, the more it's apparently confirmed. WWDC 2020 will undoubtedly feature a flying car.
marze 14y ago
Steve would have said, is he inebriated? Anyhow, the $99 Logitech keyboard case is available today.
- jamesbanner 14y ago
  Yes that totally makes IOS keyboard and mouse friendly /s
- kevingadd 14y ago
  If you think a $100 keyboard case makes an iPad into a real computer, I'm not sure you've used a computer before.
  - daliusd 14y ago
    I guess the same reasoning can be applied to Surface. I really find Surface idea interesting but I find it highly impractical knowing my work habits with netbooks and tablets.
  - dongsheng 14y ago
    That's comparing with Surface Pro, not a computer
  - jasongullickson 14y ago
    what is a "real computer"?
  - astrodust 14y ago
    I'm not sure you've used a Surface device, either. In fact, I'm pretty sure you haven't. A $100 keyboard case turns the iPad into as much of a computer as most people need. What do you think people are doing these days that requires a "computer"? If you're like most people, you'll check your email, visit your social networks, flick through your favorite apps, maybe some games, and then you'll watch movies or listen to music. I don't see what Surface adds to help anyone in that department. It might get the Office crowd all jazzed up in theory but if I crunched spreadsheets all day, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing it on some crappy ARM Surface device.
6ren 14y ago
> How come ... Jobs was able to cross the tablet threshold and Gates wasn't? There's also the small matter of 10 years worth of Moore's Law. It's significant, though, that if the tablet-winter could be overcome, perhaps other winters may yet also be... EDIT Apple also had the Newton, a tablet-like device...
- mitchty 14y ago
  Even then, the approaches were entirely different. Microsoft tried shoehorning their desktop os into a tablet, Apple did not. They did the same thing for their phone os, I for one do not miss the stylus phones.
  - luriel 14y ago
    I do miss phones with decent (and that meas physical) keyboards.
- ph-k 14y ago
  > Apple also had the Newton, a tablet-like device... Apple created the Newton when Jobs was gone. In the series of questions/answers after the WWDC 1997, right as Jobs was about to make his comeback, he admitted that he didn't like the Newton, and that he did not wish for Apple to continue developing it. EDIT: Here you go, I found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnO7D5UaDig&t=3665s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnO7D5UaDig&t=3665s
kposehn 14y ago
I feel that Surface brings one single thing to the table: a neat keyboard. Nothing else about the tablet is innovative; it feels like trying to cram way too much into a single device (or range of devices) at the cost of a clear focus. The iPad is the standard simply because when you see it - or when you pick it up - you know exactly what to do with it. Surface feels like a tablet that wants to play at the laptop table, but it doesn't realize all the fun is where it is at right now.
- s_henry_paulson 14y ago
  Disagree. The iPad is largely geared at consuming content. The features of the surface allow users to be able to create content. They can use Office, Visual Studio, PhotoShop, etc. These things just simply can't be done on an iPad. On surface, I can open up OneNote, and start taking handwritten notes, which the computer also does character recognition on so I can later search through my notes, or convert them into a typed document, etc. You know what to do on an iPad because your options are limited. This is an ultra-portable solution for people that want to have the abilities of a full functioning OS.
  - DeepDuh 14y ago
    Until you see that most of the x86 ecosystem is not optimized for touch input. We're pretty much at the same point as with the old tablet PCs, except that they will have become lighter and with detachable keyboard. It doesn't solve the old UX problem of having desktop apps with a touchscreen - in fact it makes it worse since you can't easily switch to a touchpad .
  - kposehn 14y ago
    > The iPad is largely geared at consuming content. Actually, I'm going to argue that the iPad wasn't geared for it; instead, developers only new how to make apps for consuming content when it was released. Look at the massive number of apps now geared towards creation on the iPad. Hell, there is a growing movement to replace laptops entirely with iPads, which I'm a part of. Office is coming for iPad (it seems) and there is the Apple apps for content creation. Photoshop is on iPad as well. Only development is lacking, but that is because dev work - at this time - requires a more intricate interface. That will one day change.
phil 14y ago
Delusional.
fxj 14y ago
Gates says: Microsoft's tablets, he said weren't as "thin and attractive." Yes, they were the lover you had, rather than the one you want. If I were Melinda, I would be pissed.
quesera 14y ago
That's funny. I'd love to see Steve Jobs' reaction to Bill Gates' opinion regarding what Apple needs to do. I suspect Tim Cook's reaction will be similar, though quieter.
michaelcampbell 14y ago
Why, when you have the ear of the USPTO and just litigate it out of existence?

24 points by pohl 14y ago

zanny 14y ago

What about the Transformer Infinity? You know, it is basically the surface.. coming out this month... running android. Go write apps for it. I plan to after I pick one up, it looks awesome.

astrodust 14y ago
You know, more people would write apps for it if more people owned one, and more people would own one if there were more apps for it. This is the harsh reality of the game Google's committed to playing. Their advertising-first, developers-second model isn't helping either.

stevenleeg 14y ago

The title of this is a bit sensational. Gates only said that it was a "strong possibility" that Apple would have to do something similar to the "no compromise" strategy of the Surface.

Herring 14y ago
The whole article was mocking Gates, and not very subtly either.

glesica 14y ago

Why? Seriously. What has he seen in the market for devices over the past 15-20 years that makes him think that? Yes, there has been a trend toward consolidating devices (PDA and camera functions being subsumed by the cell phone, for instance). But there's a huge difference between that and converging a tablet with a laptop: the differences between tablets and laptops are largely form, not function. You couldn't take a photo on a Palm Pilot or early cell phone. You just couldn't do it. You needed a standalone camera. Enter the camera phone. Suddenly you could take a photo on a cell phone. In addition, you could send the pictures you took to other people as you took them, something you couldn't do before at all! So once the quality of the phone cameras hit a certain point, people started relying on them and convergence had happened. How would the laptop and tablet naturally converge for "normal" users? What can one device do that the other can't, and what could a converged device do that neither of the individual devices can? Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see it. Disclaimer: I think the Surface looks pretty bad-ass and I'm thrilled to see MS calling out the OEMs for releasing an endless parade of vision-killing crap.

tikhonj 14y ago
I don't know. I imagine it's like this: you want a tablet for lounging on your couch and watching movies or browsing the internet; you want a light laptop for doing actual work at Starbucks or your local library. You could get an iPad and an MBA, or you could just get a Surface and have both in one. So it's not really some new capability--rather, it's a single device that can do the job of two. Not only is this more cheaper but it is also more convenient: you don't have to sync your files between devices or keep track of two different computers (with different operating systems, at that!); you can just use your single Windows computer for both tasks. I think the slightly odd design of Windows 8 is actually very conducive to this: for lounging around, you have Metro and for actual work you have the classic desktop. I could certainly see people currently on Windows liking that. Now, I don't know if the Surface actually fulfills that role in practice, but that's what I imagine the idea to be. I also suspect that this isn't aimed at Apple customers at all--the person getting the iPad and MBA would still get them out of brand loyalty. Rather, this is aimed at your stalwart Windows user who is considering getting an iPad but isn't crazy about Apple and wouldn't want to switch to OS X. On a completely unrelated note, I would love to get one and run Linux. Unfortunately, it seems there is going to be a lot of useless nonsense around secure boot that would make this difficult (at least for the ARM version). But I think this is the perfect device to play around with the new KDE touch interface.
- DeepDuh 14y ago
  One aspect that's absolutely critical for tablets is weight. As an example, the weight difference of the iPad2 vs iPad1 makes a huge difference for me - only the latter allows me to hold it for longer periods without getting tired. The advantages you describe are IMO only applicable for Win x86 tablets - and those will be either underpowered, undercharged or too heavy to compete with the iPad-experience when it comes to just consuming media on your couch. Sure, the two device categories are closing up and will likely merge at some point in the future - but the hardware is not there yet for doing everything without serious concessions.
wcchandler 14y ago
I think the only way this is possible is if we invent a new HID... something that will turn the mouse, keyboard and touchpad into something obsolete. In this realm we have a couple contenders which can mostly be seen in Google Glass. Eye tracking, voice commands, motion capturing... All of which is easily many years away from any real world use or adoption. As such, the only way for these devices to converge would be to totally change the game. (s/HID/output device/ and most of the arguments still hold true)

jsz0 14y ago

I assume he means something like the Surface Pro? I don't think we'll see anything like that from Apple until the weight issues are resolved. The MS Surface Pro is 2 pounds. The original iPad at 1.5 pounds was pushing the limits of what most people found acceptable for a device you might hold for a long period of time. Even the small weight difference between the 2nd and 3rd generation iPads is noticeable. Now add more than half a pound to that weight and you're holding a boat anchor. Microsoft seems to think that perhaps a device like the Surface Pro is a better value than two separate devices. I can't see how that would be true. You end up with half a laptop and a tablet too heavy to actually use as a tablet. Two devices cost more but are actually a better value because they can both be very good devices.

frugalfirbolg 14y ago
Hmm, I use a Lenovo X220 convertible as a tablet for extended periods with little fatigue. It weighs 3.88 lbs. I've also used the IBM T60 tablet. I'll admit that the iPad's lightness is a nice feature, but not a necessity. Also, I am not a power lifter, and for comparison my little sister has also used these form factors and carries a 17" MacBook Pro at 6.66 lbs. My point is that for some people this is a viable form factor. My primary concern about the Surface Pro is cooling since it doesn't appear to have fans and the last batch of Ivy Bridge CPUs were using some questionable heat compound between the die and outer casing. I also wonder if it will be capable of delivering reasonable performance with applications such as Photoshop or run a WAMP server and IDE at the same time.
- astrodust 14y ago
  Microsoft's track record with cooling is far from flawless if the gigantically expensive Xbox 360 recall is any indication. I really wonder if they can tame the heat problem in the device using current-spec chips, or they're going to stall until Intel's 2013 chips hit and they have more margin.

fchollet 14y ago

I believe Tim Cook has already stated very clearly to the press that Apple will NOT be making any laptop/tablet hybrid. At this point a change of direction seems unlikely.

noamsml 14y ago
Apple always denies they will make things -- until they do.
- astrodust 14y ago
  This is what drives the rumors wild. The stronger they deny it, the more it's apparently confirmed. WWDC 2020 will undoubtedly feature a flying car.

marze 14y ago

Steve would have said, is he inebriated? Anyhow, the $99 Logitech keyboard case is available today.

jamesbanner 14y ago
Yes that totally makes IOS keyboard and mouse friendly /s
kevingadd 14y ago
If you think a $100 keyboard case makes an iPad into a real computer, I'm not sure you've used a computer before.
- daliusd 14y ago
  I guess the same reasoning can be applied to Surface. I really find Surface idea interesting but I find it highly impractical knowing my work habits with netbooks and tablets.
- dongsheng 14y ago
  That's comparing with Surface Pro, not a computer
- jasongullickson 14y ago
  what is a "real computer"?
- astrodust 14y ago
  I'm not sure you've used a Surface device, either. In fact, I'm pretty sure you haven't. A $100 keyboard case turns the iPad into as much of a computer as most people need. What do you think people are doing these days that requires a "computer"? If you're like most people, you'll check your email, visit your social networks, flick through your favorite apps, maybe some games, and then you'll watch movies or listen to music. I don't see what Surface adds to help anyone in that department. It might get the Office crowd all jazzed up in theory but if I crunched spreadsheets all day, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing it on some crappy ARM Surface device.

6ren 14y ago

> How come ... Jobs was able to cross the tablet threshold and Gates wasn't? There's also the small matter of 10 years worth of Moore's Law. It's significant, though, that if the tablet-winter could be overcome, perhaps other winters may yet also be... EDIT Apple also had the Newton, a tablet-like device...

mitchty 14y ago
Even then, the approaches were entirely different. Microsoft tried shoehorning their desktop os into a tablet, Apple did not. They did the same thing for their phone os, I for one do not miss the stylus phones.
- luriel 14y ago
  I do miss phones with decent (and that meas physical) keyboards.
ph-k 14y ago
> Apple also had the Newton, a tablet-like device... Apple created the Newton when Jobs was gone. In the series of questions/answers after the WWDC 1997, right as Jobs was about to make his comeback, he admitted that he didn't like the Newton, and that he did not wish for Apple to continue developing it. EDIT: Here you go, I found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnO7D5UaDig&t=3665s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnO7D5UaDig&t=3665s

kposehn 14y ago

I feel that Surface brings one single thing to the table: a neat keyboard. Nothing else about the tablet is innovative; it feels like trying to cram way too much into a single device (or range of devices) at the cost of a clear focus. The iPad is the standard simply because when you see it - or when you pick it up - you know exactly what to do with it. Surface feels like a tablet that wants to play at the laptop table, but it doesn't realize all the fun is where it is at right now.

s_henry_paulson 14y ago
Disagree. The iPad is largely geared at consuming content. The features of the surface allow users to be able to create content. They can use Office, Visual Studio, PhotoShop, etc. These things just simply can't be done on an iPad. On surface, I can open up OneNote, and start taking handwritten notes, which the computer also does character recognition on so I can later search through my notes, or convert them into a typed document, etc. You know what to do on an iPad because your options are limited. This is an ultra-portable solution for people that want to have the abilities of a full functioning OS.
- DeepDuh 14y ago
  Until you see that most of the x86 ecosystem is not optimized for touch input. We're pretty much at the same point as with the old tablet PCs, except that they will have become lighter and with detachable keyboard. It doesn't solve the old UX problem of having desktop apps with a touchscreen - in fact it makes it worse since you can't easily switch to a touchpad .
- kposehn 14y ago
  > The iPad is largely geared at consuming content. Actually, I'm going to argue that the iPad wasn't geared for it; instead, developers only new how to make apps for consuming content when it was released. Look at the massive number of apps now geared towards creation on the iPad. Hell, there is a growing movement to replace laptops entirely with iPads, which I'm a part of. Office is coming for iPad (it seems) and there is the Apple apps for content creation. Photoshop is on iPad as well. Only development is lacking, but that is because dev work - at this time - requires a more intricate interface. That will one day change.

phil 14y ago

Delusional.

fxj 14y ago

Gates says: Microsoft's tablets, he said weren't as "thin and attractive." Yes, they were the lover you had, rather than the one you want. If I were Melinda, I would be pissed.

quesera 14y ago

That's funny. I'd love to see Steve Jobs' reaction to Bill Gates' opinion regarding what Apple needs to do. I suspect Tim Cook's reaction will be similar, though quieter.

michaelcampbell 14y ago

Why, when you have the ear of the USPTO and just litigate it out of existence?