4 ms·

> Most of the Palestinians who fled in 1948 did so because of Arab armies who urged them to move so they can kill the Jews more easily. That backfired. Those wh

> Most of the Palestinians who fled in 1948 did so because of Arab armies who urged them to move so they can kill the Jews more easily. That backfired. Those who stayed are Israeli citizens and always have been. Those who fled couldn't come back because the borders were sealed due to a war their leaders chose to start. You mention 1948....but what happened in 1946, and 1947? Aren't those years also relevant? Things like the bombing of the King David Hotel (by Zionist militias) and the Deir Yassin Massacre (same militias again), precede intervention by neighboring Arab states. Palestinians were already fleeing from murder, and they couldn't return to homes which had been demolished by the Zionist militias, and with the rubble mined to prevent people returning. Israeli historians have written extensively on this period. Benny Morris's book can be read on the Internet Archive or downloaded on VK ( https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 ). I don't have an electronic source for Ilan Pappe's book, but here is an article he wrote which seems like an abridged version: ( https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141_b.pdf https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141... ). Pappe's article covers Plan Dalet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

invalidname 2y ago
[flagged]
- aguaviva 2y ago
  In 1940s the Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. So you're using Amin al-Husseini as a stand-in for all Palestinians, which I suppose is about as cool as using Netanyahu as a stand-in for all Israelis. Or as the other commenter pointed out, when referring to the occasion when agents from Stern Gang met with Nazi officials to discuss the possibility of an anti-British alliance, we might as well just say simplify and say "the Jews" did so, collectively. But never mind that. Just tell us, please: what did Amin ask Hitler to do, specifically? Referencing the transcript we all have of their sole meeting in November 1941, of course.
  - invalidname 2y ago
    > So you're using Amin al-Husseini as a stand-in for all Palestinians Nope, not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can pick any historical point in time and show why things happened in a particular way. Palestinians bemoan that Israel exists and that Jews were "given" statehood (I quote given because there was a war and it was paid for with blood). But if you look at the history it's pretty clear why the UN felt Jews deserved a home in Israel. They were on the right side of history in this particular conflict and fought besides the allies. This is a repeating pattern for Palestinian leadership. Unwillingness to compromise and victim-hood, that doesn't work well for them. I'm not saying they're not victims or even not saying that Israel isn't to blame for a lot of their problems. I am saying that their leadership bares a LOT of that responsibility too, the choices they made brought them to this point and they continue to make similar choices which make matters worse. Right now it's obviously too late since the last big choice they had was in 2008 when they rejected a statehood deal. Hamas had a choice during that time of recognizing Israel and negotiating, but it's Hamas so it obviously wasn't much of a choice. I hope there will be another such fork in the road, I doubt they will get anything remotely as good as the 2008 offer. Knowing history I doubt Palestinian leadership will take it and again they will blame Israel.
- defrost 2y ago
  > Sure. E.g. in the 1940s Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. Was that the same time the Jews went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the English? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) There's a lot of slop in playing skewed hot takes on history.
  - invalidname 2y ago
    Sure. Lehi and Shamir are indeed awful and that's why the Hunting Season was justified. There was no similar ability to unify against the extremist voices in the Palestinian side which is the main point I'm making here. This isn't history. You see the same patterns happening right now. Arafat and Abu Mazen were unable to control Hamas in the same way the Jews were able to control their extremists. You could argue that the Irish were unable to control the IRA which would be a very accurate comparison. But the scale would be different. Hamas killed in one day more than the IRA killed in its entire existence. Hamas enjoys the backing of Iran, Qatar, Turkey and others. It's used as a puppet to force a regional war that goes against the interests of the Palestinian people. At least the ones who don't want to die in a holy war.
    - defrost 2y ago
      It's good to see a contraction from "Palestinians" to Shamir and Hamas. We can also contract Jews to IDF and perhaps discuss how they kill 10x more than Hamas by most accounts. The killing is the extreme behaviour. The insidious cause is the constant slow creeping pushing out of the other, the dispossesions and land captures that continue unabated. Some see it. Other refuse to acknowledge it.
      - invalidname 2y ago
        > We can also contract Jews to IDF and perhaps discuss how they kill 10x more than Hamas by most accounts. Why is killing more of the enemy a "bad thing"? > The killing is the extreme behaviour. Yes. However, you fail to offer an alternative. Israel left Gaza, Israel made attempts to form a Palestinian state. Palestinians had the opportunity to end the cycle and Israel made that step... Last time Israel left Gaza Hamas took over. It killed MANY Palestinians then started preparing for war, building rockets, tunnels etc. Israel didn't return to Gaza and tried to limit retaliation. That clearly didn't work. > The insidious cause is the constant slow creeping pushing out of the other, the dispossesions and land captures that continue unabated. This I actually agree with. I think the settlements in the west bank, especially the deep ones are a huge mistake. Guess what enables them... > Some see it. Other refuse to acknowledge it. Goes both ways sir. What do you expect Israel to do? I wish the current conflict wasn't as violent. I wish more planning was given for "the next day". I wish Israel worked with the Palestinian authority and used this as an opportunity for that. I wish it would clear the deep settlements in the west bank instead of expanding them. Unfortunately, Israel has a terrible government and Hamas/Iran knew that when they initiated Oct 7th. I hope that after this is all over Israel would elect a more reasonable government. It would probably still be very right-wing since violence tends to push people in that direction, but hopefully it would be reasonable. A right-wing government cleared settlements in Gaza, made peace with Egypt etc. So everything is possible.
- CapricornNoble 2y ago
  > Sure. E.g. in the 1940s Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. Yes. Both the Jews and Palestinians courted relationships with Hitler and Mussolini. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement https://archive.is/nioNH https://archive.is/nioNH (Haaretz) I guess we have to "snap the chalk-line" somewhere. I didn't explicitly establish this but in debates I often snap it at the end of WW2. The period 1914-1945 was full of so much chaos and bloodshed globally, I think the end of WW2 was when people REALLY tried to catch a breather and try to build a newer, better world. > The initial Jews that came into the area were under constant attacks by Palestinians in the area so they formed militias of their own. These became very successful and split into 3 groups. Hagana which was the moderate one ended up becoming the IDF. The two others were the ones that performed those attacks and indeed performed terrorism (moderate by today's standard but still terrorism). When you refer to Jews "coming into the area", do you mean the post-WW2 immigration, or some other timespan? Because the Irgun, at least, was actively committing terrorism against the British, even outside of Palestine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946_British_Embassy_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946_British_Embassy_bombing ), as early as 1946. This appears to be a mostly one-sided campaign (not targeting the Palestinian Arabs...yet) but definitely set the stage for their level of violence moving forward. Interestingly, neither Morris nor Pappe cover 1946 violence in particular detail (both focus on the Zionist leadership's planning for the following ethnic cleansing). I need to find additional sources for this period. > Palestinians didn't have that capability of unity. They have very little in common other than hate towards Israel. Where does that hate come from, though? It didn't coalesce in a vacuum. > That is both unconfirmed I'll be perfectly honest, it's really hard not to interpret that as anything other than "Holocaust denial" level delusion. Which, of course, is tragically ironic given the subject. Both authors I mentioned cite documents in IDF archives about the deliberate planning process for the destruction in this timeframe. If you are going to assert that the destruction, its specific methods, or the resulting movements of large numbers of civilians, is unconfirmed, you need to support that with some very robust evidence. I'm not sure what could be more authoritative than "primary source documents from the perpetrator". > Then they couldn't return since there was a border. Some of them tried to return (refugees from Huj, in one example from mid-late 1948), and were refused, after internal debates by the Israelis over whether it would "set a precedent". Those debates were documented, and are cited in Morris' book, pgs330-333. Those were deliberate decisions made by Israeli leadership. > But Israel didn't choose that war, it was forced on them. Actions have consequences. As an aside, I constantly see this use of the passive voice in discussing this conflict. Israel never does anything, it just has stuff happen to it. Once you notice it, it's a really obvious form of shaping the information environment to condition people to think that nothing could ever possibly be Israel's fault, that no one making decisions in Israel has ever done so with malicious intent. Things just....happen. > Notice that Israel didn't take neither Gaza or the West Bank during that war. So why didn't the Palestinians finally have a state at that point? > Did anyone complain to Egypt/Jordan for denying the rights of the Palestinian people? That's a good question, I'll add it to my list of RFIs as I continue to research. > The fact is that this is purely because Jews were involved. I watched a man hooked up to an IV bag in a field hospital BURN ALIVE after an Israeli airstrike. The perpetual victim complex just doesn't resonate with people anymore. > But as far as this conflict goes, Israel acted WAY better than pretty much any other country in a similar situation. E.g. Turkey which keeps blasting Israel over and over just bombed civilians for a tiny attack. Crickets from the world police... Yeah, because Turkish airstrikes haven't killed FORTY THOUSAND PEOPLE in less than a year. What a ridiculous deflection. ----- At any rate, I hope this discussion has provided enough material for other HNers to educate themselves. The available Israeli sources are detailed and surprisingly candid. I don't expect either of us will illuminate any further understanding.

invalidname 2y ago

[flagged]

aguaviva 2y ago
In 1940s the Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. So you're using Amin al-Husseini as a stand-in for all Palestinians, which I suppose is about as cool as using Netanyahu as a stand-in for all Israelis. Or as the other commenter pointed out, when referring to the occasion when agents from Stern Gang met with Nazi officials to discuss the possibility of an anti-British alliance, we might as well just say simplify and say "the Jews" did so, collectively. But never mind that. Just tell us, please: what did Amin ask Hitler to do, specifically? Referencing the transcript we all have of their sole meeting in November 1941, of course.
- invalidname 2y ago
  > So you're using Amin al-Husseini as a stand-in for all Palestinians Nope, not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can pick any historical point in time and show why things happened in a particular way. Palestinians bemoan that Israel exists and that Jews were "given" statehood (I quote given because there was a war and it was paid for with blood). But if you look at the history it's pretty clear why the UN felt Jews deserved a home in Israel. They were on the right side of history in this particular conflict and fought besides the allies. This is a repeating pattern for Palestinian leadership. Unwillingness to compromise and victim-hood, that doesn't work well for them. I'm not saying they're not victims or even not saying that Israel isn't to blame for a lot of their problems. I am saying that their leadership bares a LOT of that responsibility too, the choices they made brought them to this point and they continue to make similar choices which make matters worse. Right now it's obviously too late since the last big choice they had was in 2008 when they rejected a statehood deal. Hamas had a choice during that time of recognizing Israel and negotiating, but it's Hamas so it obviously wasn't much of a choice. I hope there will be another such fork in the road, I doubt they will get anything remotely as good as the 2008 offer. Knowing history I doubt Palestinian leadership will take it and again they will blame Israel.
defrost 2y ago
> Sure. E.g. in the 1940s Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. Was that the same time the Jews went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the English? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) There's a lot of slop in playing skewed hot takes on history.
- invalidname 2y ago
  Sure. Lehi and Shamir are indeed awful and that's why the Hunting Season was justified. There was no similar ability to unify against the extremist voices in the Palestinian side which is the main point I'm making here. This isn't history. You see the same patterns happening right now. Arafat and Abu Mazen were unable to control Hamas in the same way the Jews were able to control their extremists. You could argue that the Irish were unable to control the IRA which would be a very accurate comparison. But the scale would be different. Hamas killed in one day more than the IRA killed in its entire existence. Hamas enjoys the backing of Iran, Qatar, Turkey and others. It's used as a puppet to force a regional war that goes against the interests of the Palestinian people. At least the ones who don't want to die in a holy war.
  - defrost 2y ago
    It's good to see a contraction from "Palestinians" to Shamir and Hamas. We can also contract Jews to IDF and perhaps discuss how they kill 10x more than Hamas by most accounts. The killing is the extreme behaviour. The insidious cause is the constant slow creeping pushing out of the other, the dispossesions and land captures that continue unabated. Some see it. Other refuse to acknowledge it.
    - invalidname 2y ago
      > We can also contract Jews to IDF and perhaps discuss how they kill 10x more than Hamas by most accounts. Why is killing more of the enemy a "bad thing"? > The killing is the extreme behaviour. Yes. However, you fail to offer an alternative. Israel left Gaza, Israel made attempts to form a Palestinian state. Palestinians had the opportunity to end the cycle and Israel made that step... Last time Israel left Gaza Hamas took over. It killed MANY Palestinians then started preparing for war, building rockets, tunnels etc. Israel didn't return to Gaza and tried to limit retaliation. That clearly didn't work. > The insidious cause is the constant slow creeping pushing out of the other, the dispossesions and land captures that continue unabated. This I actually agree with. I think the settlements in the west bank, especially the deep ones are a huge mistake. Guess what enables them... > Some see it. Other refuse to acknowledge it. Goes both ways sir. What do you expect Israel to do? I wish the current conflict wasn't as violent. I wish more planning was given for "the next day". I wish Israel worked with the Palestinian authority and used this as an opportunity for that. I wish it would clear the deep settlements in the west bank instead of expanding them. Unfortunately, Israel has a terrible government and Hamas/Iran knew that when they initiated Oct 7th. I hope that after this is all over Israel would elect a more reasonable government. It would probably still be very right-wing since violence tends to push people in that direction, but hopefully it would be reasonable. A right-wing government cleared settlements in Gaza, made peace with Egypt etc. So everything is possible.
CapricornNoble 2y ago
> Sure. E.g. in the 1940s Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. Yes. Both the Jews and Palestinians courted relationships with Hitler and Mussolini. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement https://archive.is/nioNH https://archive.is/nioNH (Haaretz) I guess we have to "snap the chalk-line" somewhere. I didn't explicitly establish this but in debates I often snap it at the end of WW2. The period 1914-1945 was full of so much chaos and bloodshed globally, I think the end of WW2 was when people REALLY tried to catch a breather and try to build a newer, better world. > The initial Jews that came into the area were under constant attacks by Palestinians in the area so they formed militias of their own. These became very successful and split into 3 groups. Hagana which was the moderate one ended up becoming the IDF. The two others were the ones that performed those attacks and indeed performed terrorism (moderate by today's standard but still terrorism). When you refer to Jews "coming into the area", do you mean the post-WW2 immigration, or some other timespan? Because the Irgun, at least, was actively committing terrorism against the British, even outside of Palestine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946_British_Embassy_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946_British_Embassy_bombing ), as early as 1946. This appears to be a mostly one-sided campaign (not targeting the Palestinian Arabs...yet) but definitely set the stage for their level of violence moving forward. Interestingly, neither Morris nor Pappe cover 1946 violence in particular detail (both focus on the Zionist leadership's planning for the following ethnic cleansing). I need to find additional sources for this period. > Palestinians didn't have that capability of unity. They have very little in common other than hate towards Israel. Where does that hate come from, though? It didn't coalesce in a vacuum. > That is both unconfirmed I'll be perfectly honest, it's really hard not to interpret that as anything other than "Holocaust denial" level delusion. Which, of course, is tragically ironic given the subject. Both authors I mentioned cite documents in IDF archives about the deliberate planning process for the destruction in this timeframe. If you are going to assert that the destruction, its specific methods, or the resulting movements of large numbers of civilians, is unconfirmed, you need to support that with some very robust evidence. I'm not sure what could be more authoritative than "primary source documents from the perpetrator". > Then they couldn't return since there was a border. Some of them tried to return (refugees from Huj, in one example from mid-late 1948), and were refused, after internal debates by the Israelis over whether it would "set a precedent". Those debates were documented, and are cited in Morris' book, pgs330-333. Those were deliberate decisions made by Israeli leadership. > But Israel didn't choose that war, it was forced on them. Actions have consequences. As an aside, I constantly see this use of the passive voice in discussing this conflict. Israel never does anything, it just has stuff happen to it. Once you notice it, it's a really obvious form of shaping the information environment to condition people to think that nothing could ever possibly be Israel's fault, that no one making decisions in Israel has ever done so with malicious intent. Things just....happen. > Notice that Israel didn't take neither Gaza or the West Bank during that war. So why didn't the Palestinians finally have a state at that point? > Did anyone complain to Egypt/Jordan for denying the rights of the Palestinian people? That's a good question, I'll add it to my list of RFIs as I continue to research. > The fact is that this is purely because Jews were involved. I watched a man hooked up to an IV bag in a field hospital BURN ALIVE after an Israeli airstrike. The perpetual victim complex just doesn't resonate with people anymore. > But as far as this conflict goes, Israel acted WAY better than pretty much any other country in a similar situation. E.g. Turkey which keeps blasting Israel over and over just bombed civilians for a tiny attack. Crickets from the world police... Yeah, because Turkish airstrikes haven't killed FORTY THOUSAND PEOPLE in less than a year. What a ridiculous deflection. ----- At any rate, I hope this discussion has provided enough material for other HNers to educate themselves. The available Israeli sources are detailed and surprisingly candid. I don't expect either of us will illuminate any further understanding.