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I’d just like to add, NPM gets a lot of flak (mostly deservedly) but it too is still vastly easier than anything in the JVM ecosystem. Even with all the headac

I’d just like to add, NPM gets a lot of flak (mostly deservedly) but it too is still vastly easier than anything in the JVM ecosystem. Even with all the headaches around modules versus CJS, and JS versus TypeScript, NPM is a lot easier than Gradle. Notably, you have a choice of alternate tools (eg pnpm, yarn, bun) that interoperate pretty well. I guess my point is, Gradle and Maven are specifically and outstandingly bad.

lihaoyi 2y ago
If you think gradle and maven are bad, you should try Mill! There is more to build tooling than gradle or maven, the field has evolved significantly since those tools launched 15-20 years ago, and Mill tries to do things better
ackfoobar 2y ago
I must be missing something here. Don't the tools you mentioned do a lot less than Gradle? Gradle knows test depends on compile, which depends on code generation (say protobuf) - with caching and change detection. Compare that to chaining up the commands in the `scripts` section of `package.json`. EDIT: another comment making this point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41969847 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41969847
- iainmerrick 2y ago
  I could be convinced if those features of Gradle actually worked well, or even worked properly, like dependency management does in e.g. Bazel. In practice, Gradle really seems to fall down on the basic task of just being able to build stuff in the first place. It feels like you’re constantly fighting version hell just to find a Gradle version and plugins that work together, let alone your actual code dependencies. And if you actually do need to do something slightly more complicated, like code generation, it’s very difficult to work with and the docs are really bad.
  - ackfoobar 2y ago
    I have no complaints for the well trodden path (e.g. https://github.com/google/protobuf-gradle-plugin https://github.com/google/protobuf-gradle-plugin). I have also written some custom build steps, and indeed the docs aren't very helpful - but the final implementation is quite simple.
usrusr 2y ago
Npm also gets a lot of flak for the low bar it sets for introducing malicious code by impersonating an idling maintainer or presenting yourself as a successor. The friction, the secrets to keep, they are there for a reason.

lihaoyi 2y ago

If you think gradle and maven are bad, you should try Mill! There is more to build tooling than gradle or maven, the field has evolved significantly since those tools launched 15-20 years ago, and Mill tries to do things better

ackfoobar 2y ago

I must be missing something here. Don't the tools you mentioned do a lot less than Gradle? Gradle knows test depends on compile, which depends on code generation (say protobuf) - with caching and change detection. Compare that to chaining up the commands in the `scripts` section of `package.json`. EDIT: another comment making this point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41969847 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41969847

iainmerrick 2y ago
I could be convinced if those features of Gradle actually worked well, or even worked properly, like dependency management does in e.g. Bazel. In practice, Gradle really seems to fall down on the basic task of just being able to build stuff in the first place. It feels like you’re constantly fighting version hell just to find a Gradle version and plugins that work together, let alone your actual code dependencies. And if you actually do need to do something slightly more complicated, like code generation, it’s very difficult to work with and the docs are really bad.
- ackfoobar 2y ago
  I have no complaints for the well trodden path (e.g. https://github.com/google/protobuf-gradle-plugin https://github.com/google/protobuf-gradle-plugin). I have also written some custom build steps, and indeed the docs aren't very helpful - but the final implementation is quite simple.

usrusr 2y ago

Npm also gets a lot of flak for the low bar it sets for introducing malicious code by impersonating an idling maintainer or presenting yourself as a successor. The friction, the secrets to keep, they are there for a reason.