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I saw a quote the other day - "We used to teach Latin and Greek in High School, now we teach remedial English in College." - seems pretty much on point. Massac

I saw a quote the other day - "We used to teach Latin and Greek in High School, now we teach remedial English in College." - seems pretty much on point. Massachusetts, a state renowned for it's commitment to education, is voting next month to eliminate it's High School exit exam - which if passed would leave only 7 states with any form of statewide graduation requirement. Feels pretty regressive - the soft-bigotry of low expectations coming to the forefront.

ForHackernews 2y ago
There used to be jobs that would hire without a high school diploma. Now it's harder and harder to find one that will take people without a college degree. What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek?
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek? Let them become homeless and addicted to fentanyl and slowly wither away and die or have to resort to crime to survive then lock them up and tax the people who are good at Latin and Greek to pay for their upkeep or UBI so they don't get robbed or murdered on the street by the people who aren't good at Latin or Greek and have nothing left to loose.
- EncomLab 2y ago
  It's not a direct analogy - it's a commentary on the expectations of students. Learning Latin was a fundamental part of a science or medical education, Greek was a fundamental part of what we would call a humanities education - they were the keys to communicating across boundaries in an era when English had not yet become the "global language". If anything this makes the fact that there are entire school districts in the US wherein not a single student can read to grade level even more troubling - how can someone possibly succeed at anything other than being a TikTok star without the ability clearly communicate?
  - watwut 2y ago
    Greek is not useful to anything today. Also, you are comparing expectations on top students in one case and expectations on overall population including the lowest ranking students. Likewise, reading at "grade level" is fairly high standard that massive amount of Kentucky 1912 kids would not clear ... because no one taught them to our current grade level standard. Americans colleges teach biology, physics, chemistry to a pretty high level. Entrance to the top universities is also massively more competitive then it used to be.
    - EncomLab 2y ago
      That competition would seem to make it even more important that we are better educating students today - especially when they are not just competing against kids from Kentucky.
      - watwut 2y ago
        Educating in Greek or Latin? Probably not.
- the_third_wave 2y ago
  > What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek? The answer depends on who you ask. It you ask this to what you probably would call 'capitalists' the answer would be "school choice, school vouchers, home schooling and more vocational schooling instead of useless college 'degrees' in lesbian dance theory and the like". Ask those who consider themselves to be the "defenders of the oppressed" and the answer would be "more money for teachers (unions), get rid of standardised tests because they are 'racist', get rid of those 'books written by dead white men' and replace them with books by 'diverse' authors, get rid of school choice, close top education schools because they attract mostly asian and white pupils, lower admission demands for 'diverse' people, cancel student debt, etc.". I think the former approach is more likely to lead to a return to sanity while the latter will just lead to more dismal [1] results, what do you think? [1] interestingly enough my phone autocorrected that word to 'Disney' which somehow seems fitting
  - watwut 2y ago
    The former are not capitalist response. They are the response of conservative right that has zero to do with capitalism and a lot to do with wish for social control and forced social hierarchy. Homeschooling movement project is and was all about forcing ideological and religious conformity. And the latter one are to large extend strawman.
xattt 2y ago
Ontario schools haven’t had a formal exit exam for as long as I can remember. Final exams of individual classes was what defined your exit grade (usually 20-30%). If you are referring to the exit exam in the link, you also have to remember that grade 8 in 1912 was available to a privileged few. This filtered out people with learning difficulties whose families didn’t feel like spending money on school was a worthwhile investment. Those that had the means to attend school in the 1900s also had time to dedicate to study.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
m000 2y ago
It feels that these educational regressions are quite intentional and pave the way to a more authoritarian society. It is hard to apply an agenda on an educated and internet-connected populace. Internet connectivity is still useful as a control/propaganda mechanism, as the available content can be centrally influenced (think RT News ban, "community guidelines" moderation, etc.). So it is chosen to gradually erode education over time using a variety of pretexts, so that the population will gradually regress from self-thinking citizens to obedient subjects.

ForHackernews 2y ago

There used to be jobs that would hire without a high school diploma. Now it's harder and harder to find one that will take people without a college degree. What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek?

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek? Let them become homeless and addicted to fentanyl and slowly wither away and die or have to resort to crime to survive then lock them up and tax the people who are good at Latin and Greek to pay for their upkeep or UBI so they don't get robbed or murdered on the street by the people who aren't good at Latin or Greek and have nothing left to loose.
EncomLab 2y ago
It's not a direct analogy - it's a commentary on the expectations of students. Learning Latin was a fundamental part of a science or medical education, Greek was a fundamental part of what we would call a humanities education - they were the keys to communicating across boundaries in an era when English had not yet become the "global language". If anything this makes the fact that there are entire school districts in the US wherein not a single student can read to grade level even more troubling - how can someone possibly succeed at anything other than being a TikTok star without the ability clearly communicate?
- watwut 2y ago
  Greek is not useful to anything today. Also, you are comparing expectations on top students in one case and expectations on overall population including the lowest ranking students. Likewise, reading at "grade level" is fairly high standard that massive amount of Kentucky 1912 kids would not clear ... because no one taught them to our current grade level standard. Americans colleges teach biology, physics, chemistry to a pretty high level. Entrance to the top universities is also massively more competitive then it used to be.
  - EncomLab 2y ago
    That competition would seem to make it even more important that we are better educating students today - especially when they are not just competing against kids from Kentucky.
    - watwut 2y ago
      Educating in Greek or Latin? Probably not.
the_third_wave 2y ago
> What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek? The answer depends on who you ask. It you ask this to what you probably would call 'capitalists' the answer would be "school choice, school vouchers, home schooling and more vocational schooling instead of useless college 'degrees' in lesbian dance theory and the like". Ask those who consider themselves to be the "defenders of the oppressed" and the answer would be "more money for teachers (unions), get rid of standardised tests because they are 'racist', get rid of those 'books written by dead white men' and replace them with books by 'diverse' authors, get rid of school choice, close top education schools because they attract mostly asian and white pupils, lower admission demands for 'diverse' people, cancel student debt, etc.". I think the former approach is more likely to lead to a return to sanity while the latter will just lead to more dismal [1] results, what do you think? [1] interestingly enough my phone autocorrected that word to 'Disney' which somehow seems fitting
- watwut 2y ago
  The former are not capitalist response. They are the response of conservative right that has zero to do with capitalism and a lot to do with wish for social control and forced social hierarchy. Homeschooling movement project is and was all about forcing ideological and religious conformity. And the latter one are to large extend strawman.

xattt 2y ago

Ontario schools haven’t had a formal exit exam for as long as I can remember. Final exams of individual classes was what defined your exit grade (usually 20-30%). If you are referring to the exit exam in the link, you also have to remember that grade 8 in 1912 was available to a privileged few. This filtered out people with learning difficulties whose families didn’t feel like spending money on school was a worthwhile investment. Those that had the means to attend school in the 1900s also had time to dedicate to study.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

m000 2y ago

It feels that these educational regressions are quite intentional and pave the way to a more authoritarian society. It is hard to apply an agenda on an educated and internet-connected populace. Internet connectivity is still useful as a control/propaganda mechanism, as the available content can be centrally influenced (think RT News ban, "community guidelines" moderation, etc.). So it is chosen to gradually erode education over time using a variety of pretexts, so that the population will gradually regress from self-thinking citizens to obedient subjects.