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The dictators who put people who criticize them in prison, love people like you.

marcus_holmes 2y ago
Why? I criticise dictators freely. I'm a Westerner. The point I'm making, and you clearly missed completely, is that other people think differently to us.
- cutemonster 2y ago
  There's selection bias. People self censor, so as not to disappear in prison. Others disappear in prison for real. You'll hear the voices primarily of the dictators' supporters.
  - majewsky 2y ago
    From my limited experience with the area, what Marcus says also matches what I've seen of democratic societies like Japan. I cannot offer any detailed insights into this, but a way to test the opposing hypotheses would be to see if democratic countries in SE Asia present the same cultural basis that Marcus described.
    - marcus_holmes 2y ago
      There are no democratic countries in SE Asia (which is in an indication by itself) unfortunately. Vietnam and Laos are communist, Cambodia is a dictatorship, Thailand is a monarchy, Myanmar is rolls dice a military dictatorship this year. Malaysia is an elective Monarchy. You have to get down to Singapore to get to something like a functioning democracy. I haven't been to Japan yet, so can't speak to that. Fascinating that you see the same attitude there, though.
      - cutemonster 2y ago
        Hi Marcus, look here: > Thailand sentences man to record 50 years in prison for insulting the monarchy https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/19/asia/thailand-man-sentenced-50-years-lese-majeste-record-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/19/asia/thailand-man-sentenc... I guess you know about those things, just thought it's an interesting (and sad) example of what can make people go quiet and pretend they're happy. You've been to lots of co-working spaces in SE Asia? I was thinking that then you'll meet relatively well-off people who have fewer things to complain about, that might be another source of selection bias? But what do I know. @majewsky Japan is a pretty homogenous country? I'd think that can work better and be one reason for a more satisfied-with-the-government mindset? (But maybe there's more) Compared to e.g. the US with different groups of people sometimes hating each other
        marcus_holmes 2y ago
        No, I actually worked in Cambodia alongside Khmer folks (as well as working in a bunch of co-working spaces elsewhere in the region). And sure, they were probably lying to me about things (but that's part of the difference I found - the truth is less important than in the West [0]) And yes, you could probably get a long jail sentence in Cambodia for publicly criticising Hun Sen. The thing I found interesting is that that's a symptom, not the cause. The cause is that they're a very authoritarian culture who consider it very rude (our best approximation of the emotion) when people criticise leaders. At least that was the conclusion I came to during my time there. As you say, I'm a tourist so what do I know? I do find it fascinating that we have such a resistance to understanding that different people have different attitudes to the world and different ways of thinking about it. [0] I moved to Berlin a few years later, and the difference was dramatic: Berliners have a reputation for being rudely abrupt even amongst Germans. They do not sugar-coat anything lol.
        cutemonster 2y ago
        Ok thanks for explaining :-)
        marcus_holmes 2y ago
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    Yeah, if they were Western societies, this is exactly right and that's what a dictator would need to do to stop people criticising them. But these are not Western societies. In SE Asian countries, you don't criticise your boss, even in private. Not because your boss will retaliate, but because it's incredibly rude. I worked for a while in Cambodia and it became clear that for the Khmer saying "I disagree with you, boss" was the equivalent of an American taking a dump on the boss's desk. This behaviour is not driven by fear, but by an idea of social cohesion, social harmony, that we in the West don't have and don't understand.

Why? I criticise dictators freely. I'm a Westerner. The point I'm making, and you clearly missed completely, is that other people think differently to us.

cutemonster 2y ago
There's selection bias. People self censor, so as not to disappear in prison. Others disappear in prison for real. You'll hear the voices primarily of the dictators' supporters.
- majewsky 2y ago
  From my limited experience with the area, what Marcus says also matches what I've seen of democratic societies like Japan. I cannot offer any detailed insights into this, but a way to test the opposing hypotheses would be to see if democratic countries in SE Asia present the same cultural basis that Marcus described.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    There are no democratic countries in SE Asia (which is in an indication by itself) unfortunately. Vietnam and Laos are communist, Cambodia is a dictatorship, Thailand is a monarchy, Myanmar is rolls dice a military dictatorship this year. Malaysia is an elective Monarchy. You have to get down to Singapore to get to something like a functioning democracy. I haven't been to Japan yet, so can't speak to that. Fascinating that you see the same attitude there, though.
    - cutemonster 2y ago
      Hi Marcus, look here: > Thailand sentences man to record 50 years in prison for insulting the monarchy https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/19/asia/thailand-man-sentenced-50-years-lese-majeste-record-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/19/asia/thailand-man-sentenc... I guess you know about those things, just thought it's an interesting (and sad) example of what can make people go quiet and pretend they're happy. You've been to lots of co-working spaces in SE Asia? I was thinking that then you'll meet relatively well-off people who have fewer things to complain about, that might be another source of selection bias? But what do I know. @majewsky Japan is a pretty homogenous country? I'd think that can work better and be one reason for a more satisfied-with-the-government mindset? (But maybe there's more) Compared to e.g. the US with different groups of people sometimes hating each other
      - marcus_holmes 2y ago
        No, I actually worked in Cambodia alongside Khmer folks (as well as working in a bunch of co-working spaces elsewhere in the region). And sure, they were probably lying to me about things (but that's part of the difference I found - the truth is less important than in the West [0]) And yes, you could probably get a long jail sentence in Cambodia for publicly criticising Hun Sen. The thing I found interesting is that that's a symptom, not the cause. The cause is that they're a very authoritarian culture who consider it very rude (our best approximation of the emotion) when people criticise leaders. At least that was the conclusion I came to during my time there. As you say, I'm a tourist so what do I know? I do find it fascinating that we have such a resistance to understanding that different people have different attitudes to the world and different ways of thinking about it. [0] I moved to Berlin a few years later, and the difference was dramatic: Berliners have a reputation for being rudely abrupt even amongst Germans. They do not sugar-coat anything lol.
        cutemonster 2y ago
        Ok thanks for explaining :-)
        marcus_holmes 2y ago
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  Yeah, if they were Western societies, this is exactly right and that's what a dictator would need to do to stop people criticising them. But these are not Western societies. In SE Asian countries, you don't criticise your boss, even in private. Not because your boss will retaliate, but because it's incredibly rude. I worked for a while in Cambodia and it became clear that for the Khmer saying "I disagree with you, boss" was the equivalent of an American taking a dump on the boss's desk. This behaviour is not driven by fear, but by an idea of social cohesion, social harmony, that we in the West don't have and don't understand.