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This is really interesting because it's a very Western point of view. SE Asian countries are big on social hierarchy and social cohesion. In the West, we view

This is really interesting because it's a very Western point of view. SE Asian countries are big on social hierarchy and social cohesion. In the West, we view this as these countries repressing their citizens, because that would have to be the situation for a Western country to behave like this. It's not so clear-cut there. SE Asia has a very strong, very ancient culture that is different to Western culture. We don't get to just say "you should do things our way". One major difference is their attitude to authority: in the West if you disagree with your boss you are expected to say so, possibly in private. In SE Asia that would be unbelievably rude and disrespectful, even in private. This attitude flows out to government and leadership; criticising a leader is incredibly rude. They prioritise everyone getting along rather than The Truth [0]. SE Asia has no "free speech" media any more [1], partly for this reason. Their culture just doesn't prioritise this as value. I would expect their Wikipedia entries to reflect this, too. [0] and given the shitshow of Western democracies lately, I'm not convinced our priorities are working so much better. [1] you can argue this, it depends on your definition of any of the words in this sentence. But we can agree that the vast majority of media in SE Asia is directly controlled by government one way or another, and the remainder is indirectly controlled.

cutemonster 2y ago
The dictators who put people who criticize them in prison, love people like you.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  Why? I criticise dictators freely. I'm a Westerner. The point I'm making, and you clearly missed completely, is that other people think differently to us.
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    There's selection bias. People self censor, so as not to disappear in prison. Others disappear in prison for real. You'll hear the voices primarily of the dictators' supporters.
    - majewsky 2y ago
      From my limited experience with the area, what Marcus says also matches what I've seen of democratic societies like Japan. I cannot offer any detailed insights into this, but a way to test the opposing hypotheses would be to see if democratic countries in SE Asia present the same cultural basis that Marcus described.
      - marcus_holmes 2y ago
        There are no democratic countries in SE Asia (which is in an indication by itself) unfortunately. Vietnam and Laos are communist, Cambodia is a dictatorship, Thailand is a monarchy, Myanmar is rolls dice a military dictatorship this year. Malaysia is an elective Monarchy. You have to get down to Singapore to get to something like a functioning democracy. I haven't been to Japan yet, so can't speak to that. Fascinating that you see the same attitude there, though.
        cutemonster 2y ago
        Hi Marcus, look here: > Thailand sentences man to record 50 years in prison for insulting the monarchy https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/19/asia/thailand-man-sentenced-50-years-lese-majeste-record-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/19/asia/thailand-man-sentenc... I guess you know about those things, just thought it's an interesting (and sad) example of what can make people go quiet and pretend they're happy. You've been to lots of co-working spaces in SE Asia? I was thinking that then you'll meet relatively well-off people who have fewer things to complain about, that might be another source of selection bias? But what do I know. @majewsky Japan is a pretty homogenous country? I'd think that can work better and be one reason for a more satisfied-with-the-government mindset? (But maybe there's more) Compared to e.g. the US with different groups of people sometimes hating each other
        marcus_holmes 2y ago
        No, I actually worked in Cambodia alongside Khmer folks (as well as working in a bunch of co-working spaces elsewhere in the region). And sure, they were probably lying to me about things (but that's part of the difference I found - the truth is less important than in the West [0]) And yes, you could probably get a long jail sentence in Cambodia for publicly criticising Hun Sen. The thing I found interesting is that that's a symptom, not the cause. The cause is that they're a very authoritarian culture who consider it very rude (our best approximation of the emotion) when people criticise leaders. At least that was the conclusion I came to during my time there. As you say, I'm a tourist so what do I know? I do find it fascinating that we have such a resistance to understanding that different people have different attitudes to the world and different ways of thinking about it. [0] I moved to Berlin a few years later, and the difference was dramatic: Berliners have a reputation for being rudely abrupt even amongst Germans. They do not sugar-coat anything lol.
realusername 2y ago
> This is really interesting because it's a very Western point of view. There's lots of democracies in Asia and they manage pretty well. "It's not our culture" is the one of the laziest excuse of dictators and despots to keep their seats. And no it's very clear cut, in those dictatorship, if you publish anything the government doesn't like, you end up in a torture camp, that's as clear cut as you can be.

cutemonster 2y ago

The dictators who put people who criticize them in prison, love people like you.

marcus_holmes 2y ago
Why? I criticise dictators freely. I'm a Westerner. The point I'm making, and you clearly missed completely, is that other people think differently to us.
- cutemonster 2y ago
  There's selection bias. People self censor, so as not to disappear in prison. Others disappear in prison for real. You'll hear the voices primarily of the dictators' supporters.
  - majewsky 2y ago
    From my limited experience with the area, what Marcus says also matches what I've seen of democratic societies like Japan. I cannot offer any detailed insights into this, but a way to test the opposing hypotheses would be to see if democratic countries in SE Asia present the same cultural basis that Marcus described.
    - marcus_holmes 2y ago
      There are no democratic countries in SE Asia (which is in an indication by itself) unfortunately. Vietnam and Laos are communist, Cambodia is a dictatorship, Thailand is a monarchy, Myanmar is rolls dice a military dictatorship this year. Malaysia is an elective Monarchy. You have to get down to Singapore to get to something like a functioning democracy. I haven't been to Japan yet, so can't speak to that. Fascinating that you see the same attitude there, though.
      - cutemonster 2y ago
        Hi Marcus, look here: > Thailand sentences man to record 50 years in prison for insulting the monarchy https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/19/asia/thailand-man-sentenced-50-years-lese-majeste-record-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/19/asia/thailand-man-sentenc... I guess you know about those things, just thought it's an interesting (and sad) example of what can make people go quiet and pretend they're happy. You've been to lots of co-working spaces in SE Asia? I was thinking that then you'll meet relatively well-off people who have fewer things to complain about, that might be another source of selection bias? But what do I know. @majewsky Japan is a pretty homogenous country? I'd think that can work better and be one reason for a more satisfied-with-the-government mindset? (But maybe there's more) Compared to e.g. the US with different groups of people sometimes hating each other
        marcus_holmes 2y ago
        No, I actually worked in Cambodia alongside Khmer folks (as well as working in a bunch of co-working spaces elsewhere in the region). And sure, they were probably lying to me about things (but that's part of the difference I found - the truth is less important than in the West [0]) And yes, you could probably get a long jail sentence in Cambodia for publicly criticising Hun Sen. The thing I found interesting is that that's a symptom, not the cause. The cause is that they're a very authoritarian culture who consider it very rude (our best approximation of the emotion) when people criticise leaders. At least that was the conclusion I came to during my time there. As you say, I'm a tourist so what do I know? I do find it fascinating that we have such a resistance to understanding that different people have different attitudes to the world and different ways of thinking about it. [0] I moved to Berlin a few years later, and the difference was dramatic: Berliners have a reputation for being rudely abrupt even amongst Germans. They do not sugar-coat anything lol.

realusername 2y ago

> This is really interesting because it's a very Western point of view. There's lots of democracies in Asia and they manage pretty well. "It's not our culture" is the one of the laziest excuse of dictators and despots to keep their seats. And no it's very clear cut, in those dictatorship, if you publish anything the government doesn't like, you end up in a torture camp, that's as clear cut as you can be.