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> While it might be easy to romanticize the rigor of early 20th-century education based on this exam, it's important to recognize that the educational system of

> While it might be easy to romanticize the rigor of early 20th-century education based on this exam, it's important to recognize that the educational system of 1912 served a very different purpose compared to today’s system. The 1912 exam prioritized foundational, concrete knowledge, preparing students for the immediate demands of adult life in a largely localized, labor-intensive world. In contrast, the 2024 education system aims to equip students with the skills needed for a global, ever-changing job market, emphasizing critical thinking, creativity, and technological literacy. I'd much prefer my children to have concrete knowledge and prepared for the world. Frankly, they'll be plenty prepared for the job market. Many of the folks I work are barely able to function outside of their role at work -- order all their food, can't change a tire, outsource all knowledge, etc. They're probably like the aristocrats in the 17th - 19th centuries, where they know only what they need, servants take care of the rest.

alephnerd 2y ago
This is an 8th grade exam from 1912 from Bullitt County in Kentucky for White students. It's not representative of the average American during that era - who would not have made it to 8th grade. Heck, in 1910, Kentucky had a 17% illiteracy rate [0] The fact that illiteracy using the IMF definition is non-existent in the US automatically means your average 8th grader today is better off than one a century ago. And if I'm honest, the exam itself doesn't seem that different from content I dealt with in 4th-6th grade and I was attending an urban lower middle class school back then. [0] - https://usa.ipums.org/usa/resources/voliii/pubdocs/1910/Vol1/36894832v1ch14.pdf https://usa.ipums.org/usa/resources/voliii/pubdocs/1910/Vol1...
- jdietrich 2y ago
  Practically all American adults are "literate" in the sense that they can recognise and write some words, but about 14% can't really read in any useful sense - they can usually understand a warning sign or recognise a brand name, but they couldn't reliably understand a one-paragraph newspaper article or find a program in a TV listing. https://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp https://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009481.pdf https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009481.pdf
  - parpfish 2y ago
    That’s shockingly high. As somebody that has been literate for decades, I can’t even fathom how you would survive. Or if that’s taken care of, how would you entertain yourself?
    - vanchor3 2y ago
      I'd imagine it's much easier today, than it was in the past. We have TikTok and other forms of simple to access entertainment, no heavy reliance on cash and writing checks, and worse case you just ask someone else to help you. Although I assume illiteracy indirectly implies that you can speak the language in some acceptable form, I would imagine it would be similar to living in another country without knowing the language. You go into the McDonald's click on the pictures of the food you want, press the big green button, then use your plastic card.
    - fallingknife 2y ago
      It's even worse than you think. The standard for "literate" is nothing I would describe that way. Take a look at the data here: https://usafacts.org/articles/which-states-have-the-highest-and-lowest-adult-literacy-rates/ https://usafacts.org/articles/which-states-have-the-highest-... And note that very few counties in the US have a score above 276, which is the top of the range described as "Respondents can paraphrase or make low-level inferences."
      - parpfish 2y ago
        Yeah, that’s not really what comes to mind for me when I hear about “literacy”. The standards they use to measure literacy aren’t just about being able to read words, but being able to reason with the information. I’m curious is they can reason about the information if it comes up in a spoken format, otherwise it sounds more like a general cognitive impairment and not something specific to written words
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    I'd steer clear from comparing countries based on Functional Illiteracy because the US is the only country that officially uses that definition and consistently collects data about this - which is good, because it is a forcing function for us to worker harder at solving functional illiteracy as well. That said, Germany's functional illiteracy rate is estimated to be comparable to the US [0] It's a similar story with PISA as well - most other countries use it as a dick measuring contest by testing at gifted schools, but the NCES tries to randomize PISA testing in order to actually benchmark subnational performance and identify laggards. [0] - https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-31821-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-31821-001
drewcoo 2y ago
I would also prefer your children were uneducated.
jcranmer 2y ago
To be honest, this is already a very charitable interpretation of the 1912 exam in the first place. If you strip out the questions of the arithmetic section, the remaining questions don't look like a test of "foundational, concrete knowledge" but rather a test of trivia the school board expects you to know. The grammar questions don't ask you how the English language works, they ask you how to mechanically parse a high register subset of the English language (i.e., avoiding colloquialisms) in a very particular jargon. The history section is even worse, treating wars as sequences of Important Battles™ and otherwise seeming to suggest a Great Man view of history.
bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
You think asking for the location of organs is being prepared for work? Or geography, or history, or civil government. I think you're romanticizing the past.

alephnerd 2y ago

This is an 8th grade exam from 1912 from Bullitt County in Kentucky for White students. It's not representative of the average American during that era - who would not have made it to 8th grade. Heck, in 1910, Kentucky had a 17% illiteracy rate [0] The fact that illiteracy using the IMF definition is non-existent in the US automatically means your average 8th grader today is better off than one a century ago. And if I'm honest, the exam itself doesn't seem that different from content I dealt with in 4th-6th grade and I was attending an urban lower middle class school back then. [0] - https://usa.ipums.org/usa/resources/voliii/pubdocs/1910/Vol1/36894832v1ch14.pdf https://usa.ipums.org/usa/resources/voliii/pubdocs/1910/Vol1...

jdietrich 2y ago
Practically all American adults are "literate" in the sense that they can recognise and write some words, but about 14% can't really read in any useful sense - they can usually understand a warning sign or recognise a brand name, but they couldn't reliably understand a one-paragraph newspaper article or find a program in a TV listing. https://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp https://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009481.pdf https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009481.pdf
- parpfish 2y ago
  That’s shockingly high. As somebody that has been literate for decades, I can’t even fathom how you would survive. Or if that’s taken care of, how would you entertain yourself?
  - vanchor3 2y ago
    I'd imagine it's much easier today, than it was in the past. We have TikTok and other forms of simple to access entertainment, no heavy reliance on cash and writing checks, and worse case you just ask someone else to help you. Although I assume illiteracy indirectly implies that you can speak the language in some acceptable form, I would imagine it would be similar to living in another country without knowing the language. You go into the McDonald's click on the pictures of the food you want, press the big green button, then use your plastic card.
  - fallingknife 2y ago
    It's even worse than you think. The standard for "literate" is nothing I would describe that way. Take a look at the data here: https://usafacts.org/articles/which-states-have-the-highest-and-lowest-adult-literacy-rates/ https://usafacts.org/articles/which-states-have-the-highest-... And note that very few counties in the US have a score above 276, which is the top of the range described as "Respondents can paraphrase or make low-level inferences."
    - parpfish 2y ago
      Yeah, that’s not really what comes to mind for me when I hear about “literacy”. The standards they use to measure literacy aren’t just about being able to read words, but being able to reason with the information. I’m curious is they can reason about the information if it comes up in a spoken format, otherwise it sounds more like a general cognitive impairment and not something specific to written words
- alephnerd 2y ago
  I'd steer clear from comparing countries based on Functional Illiteracy because the US is the only country that officially uses that definition and consistently collects data about this - which is good, because it is a forcing function for us to worker harder at solving functional illiteracy as well. That said, Germany's functional illiteracy rate is estimated to be comparable to the US [0] It's a similar story with PISA as well - most other countries use it as a dick measuring contest by testing at gifted schools, but the NCES tries to randomize PISA testing in order to actually benchmark subnational performance and identify laggards. [0] - https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-31821-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-31821-001

drewcoo 2y ago

I would also prefer your children were uneducated.

jcranmer 2y ago

To be honest, this is already a very charitable interpretation of the 1912 exam in the first place. If you strip out the questions of the arithmetic section, the remaining questions don't look like a test of "foundational, concrete knowledge" but rather a test of trivia the school board expects you to know. The grammar questions don't ask you how the English language works, they ask you how to mechanically parse a high register subset of the English language (i.e., avoiding colloquialisms) in a very particular jargon. The history section is even worse, treating wars as sequences of Important Battles™ and otherwise seeming to suggest a Great Man view of history.

bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago

You think asking for the location of organs is being prepared for work? Or geography, or history, or civil government. I think you're romanticizing the past.