5 ms·

I have some sympathy for this viewpoint. And I think Alex’s heart is in the right place—Nextjs is a dumpster fire and react server components are when react fin

I have some sympathy for this viewpoint. And I think Alex’s heart is in the right place—Nextjs is a dumpster fire and react server components are when react finally jumped the shark for me. Maybe if we had HTML6 we wouldn’t be in this scenario. HTML5 was great but form building on the web (without JS) is a second-rate experience. And it’s even more miserable once JS is in the mix, but hey developers can provide a much better UX for end users than HTML and CSS alone could possibly provide. Sorry Alex, but without JS the web would have died a decade ago as phones took over. It’s only JS that keeps us in the ring.

Devasta 2y ago
HTML can never be improved, that is at the very foundation of its current form. We are 20 years into the takeover from the W3C and still can't even do a PUT request without JS, nevermind anything approaching even one tenth of the functionality of XForms. The web of semantic documents died years ago, it's an application platform now and that means JS. HTML is naught but a payload carrier.
- forgetfreeman 2y ago
  All true, but an error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it. Perhaps it is finally time to let the web-as-an-application-layer paradigm die?
- aragilar 2y ago
  https://alexanderpetros.com/triptych/ https://alexanderpetros.com/triptych/ will hopefully address that.
  - Devasta 2y ago
    I wish them luck, but the last time this was attempted it was rejected as it apparently doesn't make sense that you would even want to do it in the first place. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10671#c16 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10671#c16
    - aragilar 2y ago
      https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3577#issuecomment-2329578267 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3577#issuecomment-2329... and the links inside appear to imply there's interest?
- pjmlp 2y ago
  I was really disappointed that XHTML effort was killed by the HTML5 folks, we could be so much better, but it is as it is.
  - Devasta 2y ago
    The founding members of the WHATWG really are the Thomas Midgley's of the software world. The world will spend the next century of software development trying to repair their screwups.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Ironically that work is now being made obsolete with apps regaining the role of native apps, or the plugins revenge via WebGL/WebGPU/WebAssembly.
amadeuspagel 2y ago
The author actually links to the NextJS page for server components as "a tacit acknowledgement that their shit stinks". I guess this is how you acknowledge progress if you want to write an article in the tone that is expected on HN and mastodon now.
andrewflnr 2y ago
He's not opposed to JS entirely (he specifically praises a handful of JS-based tech like ServiceWorkers), more so the all-JS single page type of app. To be fair he definitely could have been more clear about what he's talking about and what lines he's drawing.
- ec109685 2y ago
  All the desktop apps he cited that are a threat to native are SPA’s so it doesn’t seem like he hates them everywhere. I agree though it’s very odd that desktop web apps are serviceable, while they universally are horrible on mobile.
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    Because their performance falls below acceptable levels specifically on (relatively slower) mobile devices. It takes a looong time for him to get around to it, but performance (specifically UI latency) is the crux of the whole article, as I read it at least.
    - marcus_holmes 2y ago
      Yeah, I read this (and some of his linked articles) as pointing out that Apple are specifically killing browser performance and features so that PWAs cannot compete with apps on iOS. Specifically because they can't claim 30% of revenue from web apps.
      - photonthug 2y ago
        > Specifically because they can't claim 30% of revenue from web apps. This feels true, but it’s just one horn of the dilemma. The other is where websites wreck their own UX intentionally to herd users towards apps, presumably because pushing ads isn’t as lucrative as grabbing location data, contact lists, or whatever else can be legally exfiltrated and sold. It’s weird to frame this problem as if it were all the fault of whatever trends in js development or browser development (even though I agree those trends often seem foolish and messy, at least to the outsider). The whole situation the author bemoans just looks like another symptom of surveillance capitalism, enshittification, etc, call it what you will. Even with a perfect web, users will still get pushed towards apps if apps are the best way to exploit the user. There’s no other calculus of platform aesthetics or excellence going on here
DeathArrow 2y ago
>Sorry Alex, but without JS the web would have died a decade ago as phones took over. It’s only JS that keeps us in the ring. Not really. Web would still be there but for websites not web apps. The web was designed for hypertext, a medium that is just supposed to deliver information not build apps upon.
aragilar 2y ago
I doubt he's opposed to JS, given the number of new JS APIs he pushed Chrome to implement as part of Project Fugu, he seems more opposed to specific frameworks.

Devasta 2y ago

HTML can never be improved, that is at the very foundation of its current form. We are 20 years into the takeover from the W3C and still can't even do a PUT request without JS, nevermind anything approaching even one tenth of the functionality of XForms. The web of semantic documents died years ago, it's an application platform now and that means JS. HTML is naught but a payload carrier.

forgetfreeman 2y ago
All true, but an error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it. Perhaps it is finally time to let the web-as-an-application-layer paradigm die?
aragilar 2y ago
https://alexanderpetros.com/triptych/ https://alexanderpetros.com/triptych/ will hopefully address that.
- Devasta 2y ago
  I wish them luck, but the last time this was attempted it was rejected as it apparently doesn't make sense that you would even want to do it in the first place. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10671#c16 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10671#c16
  - aragilar 2y ago
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3577#issuecomment-2329578267 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3577#issuecomment-2329... and the links inside appear to imply there's interest?
pjmlp 2y ago
I was really disappointed that XHTML effort was killed by the HTML5 folks, we could be so much better, but it is as it is.
- Devasta 2y ago
  The founding members of the WHATWG really are the Thomas Midgley's of the software world. The world will spend the next century of software development trying to repair their screwups.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Ironically that work is now being made obsolete with apps regaining the role of native apps, or the plugins revenge via WebGL/WebGPU/WebAssembly.

amadeuspagel 2y ago

The author actually links to the NextJS page for server components as "a tacit acknowledgement that their shit stinks". I guess this is how you acknowledge progress if you want to write an article in the tone that is expected on HN and mastodon now.

andrewflnr 2y ago

He's not opposed to JS entirely (he specifically praises a handful of JS-based tech like ServiceWorkers), more so the all-JS single page type of app. To be fair he definitely could have been more clear about what he's talking about and what lines he's drawing.

ec109685 2y ago
All the desktop apps he cited that are a threat to native are SPA’s so it doesn’t seem like he hates them everywhere. I agree though it’s very odd that desktop web apps are serviceable, while they universally are horrible on mobile.
- andrewflnr 2y ago
  Because their performance falls below acceptable levels specifically on (relatively slower) mobile devices. It takes a looong time for him to get around to it, but performance (specifically UI latency) is the crux of the whole article, as I read it at least.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    Yeah, I read this (and some of his linked articles) as pointing out that Apple are specifically killing browser performance and features so that PWAs cannot compete with apps on iOS. Specifically because they can't claim 30% of revenue from web apps.
    - photonthug 2y ago
      > Specifically because they can't claim 30% of revenue from web apps. This feels true, but it’s just one horn of the dilemma. The other is where websites wreck their own UX intentionally to herd users towards apps, presumably because pushing ads isn’t as lucrative as grabbing location data, contact lists, or whatever else can be legally exfiltrated and sold. It’s weird to frame this problem as if it were all the fault of whatever trends in js development or browser development (even though I agree those trends often seem foolish and messy, at least to the outsider). The whole situation the author bemoans just looks like another symptom of surveillance capitalism, enshittification, etc, call it what you will. Even with a perfect web, users will still get pushed towards apps if apps are the best way to exploit the user. There’s no other calculus of platform aesthetics or excellence going on here

DeathArrow 2y ago

>Sorry Alex, but without JS the web would have died a decade ago as phones took over. It’s only JS that keeps us in the ring. Not really. Web would still be there but for websites not web apps. The web was designed for hypertext, a medium that is just supposed to deliver information not build apps upon.

aragilar 2y ago

I doubt he's opposed to JS, given the number of new JS APIs he pushed Chrome to implement as part of Project Fugu, he seems more opposed to specific frameworks.