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<< Not giving the vote to "dumb" people is taking away their sovereignty. I think there is clear level of misunderstanding of what sovereignty actually is. It

<< Not giving the vote to "dumb" people is taking away their sovereignty. I think there is clear level of misunderstanding of what sovereignty actually is. It is not some of sort semi-legal status. Naturally, we could spend time here going over the definitions including how that definition refers to democracy and Democracy ( we can also spend fair amount of time discussing how the capital D differs from the small d and why it is relevant to this discussion ). I am not sure it is that worthwhile, to be perfectly honest. There are tomes discussing it and most of it is rather dry. << "Democracy is the worst political system, other than all the rest." I mean, since we are going for trite I will reply with similarly trite "Democracy is a nice idea if it was actually implemented." And now we can spar over whether US is a democracy, which also is largely a waste of everyone's time. << Anything short of universal adult suffrage is an attempt to oppress classes of people. Just by stating above you effectively confirm there is no democracy in US. Again, a fair amount of boring writing on this largely centered around the concept of a class. I am not sure I am the right person to discuss that. << If we're going to require all people to vote, they should be as educated as possible. Hence free public education. By your own logic, since we do not require people to vote, free public education is not necessary. I agree there is some benefit to it, but I am relatively firm in my stance in its current shape, it is in dire need of a reform ( and by that I do mean effectively nuking it from the orbit ). ** FWIW, while I do not buy your argument I am sympathetic to the worldview it represents. It is hopeful. edit: << Why do you think you'd be in the ruling class in your authoritarian fantasy? You greatly misunderstand my perspective on the matter. You are effectively a slave now. In my fantasy, at least you have a shot to not be one. It is not a lot, but it is more than what you have now. edit2: We. We are slaves.

unethical_ban 2y ago
I said "require to vote" but meant "require the right to vote". You have said a lot, but you haven't defined the world you want, except one where an aristocratic class has power over the masses. Somehow you follow up with "public education is good in theory but since it doesn't currently work we should eliminate it". You say we are all slaves, but don't propose any method or course of action that would lead to your fantasy of betterment. This is troubling. --- And all of this gazing-into-the-whoskey-glass discussion fails to recognize the very real differences that the candidates have, which have very real impacts on millions of people. I (and presumably you) are privileged that Trump can't deport us, or take away our right to some healthcare choices, and that we have savings accounts and jobs with health insurance. I disagree with your worldview.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  << And all of this gazing-into-the-whoskey-glass discussion fails to recognize the very real differences that the candidates have, which have very real impacts on millions of people. I like that phrase. I may end up stealing that. I didn't say there are no differences or that there are no impacts. I said there were no real differences. Just because something has an impact on a number of people, does not make it important. Google email change may have a greater impact on most people's lives than some of the stuff we are talking about now. But I will make a specific observation here and tell me your thoughts on it. There is an amusing level of 'tax ideas' in the last moments of the campaign including no taxes on tips or no taxes on overtime, which, arguably has little to no real impact on the budget ( despite -- also arguably -- having some positive impact on the poor people ). Naturally, all of that has near zero chance of passing, which is partially the point I want to make here for you to consider. This is literally the 'bread' part in panem et circenses and there is literally no chance of it happening despite being practically insignificant amount in the US annual budget. What does that tell you about the priorities of the elected officials? What does it tell you about the candidates? I know what I think here, but I am curious how you will defend espoused values of candidates vs the reality of what is being done ( or has been done or will be done ). << You say we are all slaves, but don't propose any method or course of action that would lead to your fantasy of betterment. Which part? That there may be no way to make it better or the nature the reality we live in? << This is troubling. Zero disagreement. << Somehow you follow up with "public education is good in theory but since it doesn't currently work we should eliminate it". I am a simple man raised on Windows 98. Unfortunately, if there is one thing Microsoft taught me, it is that sometimes fresh install is necessary as no amount of fiddling will save it. This is largely how I feel about public education; no amount of fiddling will save this version.. << I (and presumably you) are privileged that Trump can't deport us, or take away our right to some healthcare choices, and that we have savings accounts and jobs with health insurance. In a sense, it is always a possibility. If you look at some of the fine print lately, you will note that naturalized citizenship could be stripped in some circumstances or that sometimes it does not matter if you are a citizen at all as long as the government deems you a big enough nuisance. But that is not Trump's fault. If anything, he may be a symptom of a greater issue and a convenient face to justify even more fine print on our list of privileges ( just in case that nuance is lost, I am channeling immortal Carlin here ). << I disagree with your worldview. That is ok. I do not come here to seek confirmation. I do come here, because, people here, on average, are interesting, smart, and/or capable ( sometimes all three at the same time too ). Call it aspirational voyeurism.

unethical_ban 2y ago

I said "require to vote" but meant "require the right to vote". You have said a lot, but you haven't defined the world you want, except one where an aristocratic class has power over the masses. Somehow you follow up with "public education is good in theory but since it doesn't currently work we should eliminate it". You say we are all slaves, but don't propose any method or course of action that would lead to your fantasy of betterment. This is troubling. --- And all of this gazing-into-the-whoskey-glass discussion fails to recognize the very real differences that the candidates have, which have very real impacts on millions of people. I (and presumably you) are privileged that Trump can't deport us, or take away our right to some healthcare choices, and that we have savings accounts and jobs with health insurance. I disagree with your worldview.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
<< And all of this gazing-into-the-whoskey-glass discussion fails to recognize the very real differences that the candidates have, which have very real impacts on millions of people. I like that phrase. I may end up stealing that. I didn't say there are no differences or that there are no impacts. I said there were no real differences. Just because something has an impact on a number of people, does not make it important. Google email change may have a greater impact on most people's lives than some of the stuff we are talking about now. But I will make a specific observation here and tell me your thoughts on it. There is an amusing level of 'tax ideas' in the last moments of the campaign including no taxes on tips or no taxes on overtime, which, arguably has little to no real impact on the budget ( despite -- also arguably -- having some positive impact on the poor people ). Naturally, all of that has near zero chance of passing, which is partially the point I want to make here for you to consider. This is literally the 'bread' part in panem et circenses and there is literally no chance of it happening despite being practically insignificant amount in the US annual budget. What does that tell you about the priorities of the elected officials? What does it tell you about the candidates? I know what I think here, but I am curious how you will defend espoused values of candidates vs the reality of what is being done ( or has been done or will be done ). << You say we are all slaves, but don't propose any method or course of action that would lead to your fantasy of betterment. Which part? That there may be no way to make it better or the nature the reality we live in? << This is troubling. Zero disagreement. << Somehow you follow up with "public education is good in theory but since it doesn't currently work we should eliminate it". I am a simple man raised on Windows 98. Unfortunately, if there is one thing Microsoft taught me, it is that sometimes fresh install is necessary as no amount of fiddling will save it. This is largely how I feel about public education; no amount of fiddling will save this version.. << I (and presumably you) are privileged that Trump can't deport us, or take away our right to some healthcare choices, and that we have savings accounts and jobs with health insurance. In a sense, it is always a possibility. If you look at some of the fine print lately, you will note that naturalized citizenship could be stripped in some circumstances or that sometimes it does not matter if you are a citizen at all as long as the government deems you a big enough nuisance. But that is not Trump's fault. If anything, he may be a symptom of a greater issue and a convenient face to justify even more fine print on our list of privileges ( just in case that nuance is lost, I am channeling immortal Carlin here ). << I disagree with your worldview. That is ok. I do not come here to seek confirmation. I do come here, because, people here, on average, are interesting, smart, and/or capable ( sometimes all three at the same time too ). Call it aspirational voyeurism.