4 ms·

Sybil and sockpuppetry is solvable by "following" (possibly truth-weighted, can nicely express negative weights). The downside is that there is no global truth

Sybil and sockpuppetry is solvable by "following" (possibly truth-weighted, can nicely express negative weights). The downside is that there is no global truth view, only individual ones based on who you grant trustworthiness and how it recursively expands – but arguably this reflects reality better.

yorwba 2y ago
"No global truth view" also makes discoverability difficult. How do you know whom to follow? Just people you already know from elsewhere? Then if you don't know any subject-matter experts, will your individual view of the wiki be devoid of subject-matter expertise? That arguably reflects reality better, but also isn't terribly useful. Edit: I guess the situation of an expert correcting an article written by laypeople is similar to an expert replying to a layperson's toot or whatever. So maybe you could solve this by letting people see new edits made by other people on top of their own edits, and giving them the option to block or accept the change, or even follow the user in question.
- mirekrusin 2y ago
  It would be neutral which is current status quo, not that bad? The nice part is that it would work the other way around as well – from article/subject back to people who endorse or object it – in case you want to follow (attract/repel their pov). In reality who to follow should be easy as it would be recursive – if you follow MIT and MIT follows ie. Noam Chomsky – you wouldn't have to directly follow Noam as your trust would already exist as transitive one from MIT etc.
  - yorwba 2y ago
    The status quo is not neutral. It is extremely biased, particularly against spam, vandalism and low-quality content. Its defense against sybil attacks and sockpuppetry is a single global truth, collectively patrolled by all users. If you tried to do a neutral wiki anyone can edit, it would be full of ads and porn.
    - mirekrusin 2y ago
      It's neutral in the sense that it's not trust-weight-filtered by observer. It can be created yes, just like any web page can be created, but won't surface for anybody because nobody will endorse it. If it's endorsed by sybil accounts – it'll be visible to sybils and their followers – ie. nobody real. To rephrase it – following somebody means it alters your view and nothing else – it's uni-directional (but recursive).
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  Wikipedia has an explainer called "Verifiability, Not Truth". It was quite popular to reference this during disputes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_t... It was deprecated to "essay" status a while ago, because it was quite controversial, but not because it was inaccurate. Wikipedia is not involved in the business of publishing Truth. Wikipedia's articles are based on Verifiability, which means that the assertions can be backed up and traced to the reliable sources that are provided alongside them. If there is a dichotomy or controversy about the "truth" of a fact, well, then, Wikipedia documents that controversy, according to the reliably-published information about it. Wikipedia projects work within the languages they're published in, for better or worse. That means, a Vietnamese wiki will generally be run by and for people who speak Vietnamese, and will generally rely on sources published in that language. So if there is a consensus about a fact or assertion in Vietnamese-language sources, and it's agreed by people who speak Vietnamese, then it wouldn't be easy to break through that consensus, even if you had a sincerely held belief. Which brings us to another Wikipedian axiom: WP:RGW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing#Righting_great_wrongs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing#... People who edit Wikipedia shouldn't be concerned about "Righting Great Wrongs" through editing or discussion. If there is injustice in the world, it will likely be reflected in Wikipedia, despite striving to be a collegial utopia, it is not usually possible to change the world from activism there, and activist editors are eventually blocked and banned for being non-neutral.
  - JSteph22 2y ago
    It's a nice claim, but ultimately Wikipedia is publishing its own truth based on the sources it allows or doesn't.
    - AStonesThrow 2y ago
      That is indeed the key to Wikipedia's systemic bias. By carefully curating their blacklist of sources, they're able to exclude any viewpoints that differ with their majority viewpoint. Wikipedia's "Neutral Point of View" is only neutral when viewed by those who agree with them, for example: mainstream progressive center-left outlets like NYTimes and HuffPo, and scholarly ivory towers such as Oxford/Cambridge/Ivy League.

yorwba 2y ago

"No global truth view" also makes discoverability difficult. How do you know whom to follow? Just people you already know from elsewhere? Then if you don't know any subject-matter experts, will your individual view of the wiki be devoid of subject-matter expertise? That arguably reflects reality better, but also isn't terribly useful. Edit: I guess the situation of an expert correcting an article written by laypeople is similar to an expert replying to a layperson's toot or whatever. So maybe you could solve this by letting people see new edits made by other people on top of their own edits, and giving them the option to block or accept the change, or even follow the user in question.

mirekrusin 2y ago
It would be neutral which is current status quo, not that bad? The nice part is that it would work the other way around as well – from article/subject back to people who endorse or object it – in case you want to follow (attract/repel their pov). In reality who to follow should be easy as it would be recursive – if you follow MIT and MIT follows ie. Noam Chomsky – you wouldn't have to directly follow Noam as your trust would already exist as transitive one from MIT etc.
- yorwba 2y ago
  The status quo is not neutral. It is extremely biased, particularly against spam, vandalism and low-quality content. Its defense against sybil attacks and sockpuppetry is a single global truth, collectively patrolled by all users. If you tried to do a neutral wiki anyone can edit, it would be full of ads and porn.
  - mirekrusin 2y ago
    It's neutral in the sense that it's not trust-weight-filtered by observer. It can be created yes, just like any web page can be created, but won't surface for anybody because nobody will endorse it. If it's endorsed by sybil accounts – it'll be visible to sybils and their followers – ie. nobody real. To rephrase it – following somebody means it alters your view and nothing else – it's uni-directional (but recursive).
AStonesThrow 2y ago
Wikipedia has an explainer called "Verifiability, Not Truth". It was quite popular to reference this during disputes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_t... It was deprecated to "essay" status a while ago, because it was quite controversial, but not because it was inaccurate. Wikipedia is not involved in the business of publishing Truth. Wikipedia's articles are based on Verifiability, which means that the assertions can be backed up and traced to the reliable sources that are provided alongside them. If there is a dichotomy or controversy about the "truth" of a fact, well, then, Wikipedia documents that controversy, according to the reliably-published information about it. Wikipedia projects work within the languages they're published in, for better or worse. That means, a Vietnamese wiki will generally be run by and for people who speak Vietnamese, and will generally rely on sources published in that language. So if there is a consensus about a fact or assertion in Vietnamese-language sources, and it's agreed by people who speak Vietnamese, then it wouldn't be easy to break through that consensus, even if you had a sincerely held belief. Which brings us to another Wikipedian axiom: WP:RGW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing#Righting_great_wrongs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing#... People who edit Wikipedia shouldn't be concerned about "Righting Great Wrongs" through editing or discussion. If there is injustice in the world, it will likely be reflected in Wikipedia, despite striving to be a collegial utopia, it is not usually possible to change the world from activism there, and activist editors are eventually blocked and banned for being non-neutral.
- JSteph22 2y ago
  It's a nice claim, but ultimately Wikipedia is publishing its own truth based on the sources it allows or doesn't.
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    That is indeed the key to Wikipedia's systemic bias. By carefully curating their blacklist of sources, they're able to exclude any viewpoints that differ with their majority viewpoint. Wikipedia's "Neutral Point of View" is only neutral when viewed by those who agree with them, for example: mainstream progressive center-left outlets like NYTimes and HuffPo, and scholarly ivory towers such as Oxford/Cambridge/Ivy League.