14 ms·

This can go either way. Remember when dcurtis did a unsolicited spec redesign for the American Airlines website? We here at HN tore him a new one (justifiably

This can go either way. Remember when dcurtis did a unsolicited spec redesign for the American Airlines website? We here at HN tore him a new one (justifiably so, it ignored so many critical aspects of the business, and came off as entirely impractical). When you do something like this, you better be sure you nail every single angle of it. FWIW, I normally hate spec redesigns - they're usually positioned in a pompous, "I know better than everyone", self-aggrandizing way. But this one I really like, this one strikes a chord.

pchristensen 14y ago
HN criticized, but I've heard "the guy who redesigned American's website" referenced in several times from several sources. It spread, it got him a reputation, it gave him a brand! Dustin Curtis is now recognizable in any kind of design discussion. I've never heard of minimallyminimal, but I'll remember "the guy who rebranded Microsoft" for a long time.
- the-cakeboss 14y ago
  He may be recognizable in a design discussion on HN, but hardly out of this context. Same goes for this guy. That of course is not to say that these sorts of efforts should be avoided, but I do think you are overestimating their impact.
  - wilfra 14y ago
    I think you are underestimating the impact of being well known on HN for something like that. Nearly everybody who matters reads this site at least sometimes.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      Nearly everyone who matters reads this site at least sometimes and might possibly come across a discussion about a 3 year old article.
      - pbreit 14y ago
        This is totally false. I would say hat few who "matter" ever visit or participate here. Of the 1000 or so acquaintances of mine in the Bay Area tech industry, man who "matter" I'd say 50, tops, have ever spent much time here and fewer have posted.
        chris_wot 14y ago
        That's precisely my point :-)
    - jsprink_banned 14y ago
      Although jsprinkles got slowbanned and hellbanned (still unsure why but cannot be bothered; more on that later), I had to create another account just to respond to this. This comment encapsulates, in amazingly succinct fashion, everything that is wrong with Hacker News and the people that participate in this community. I can translate "[n]early everybody who matters" in this context, and it means a subset of Silicon Valley that thinks it is the entire universe. Hacker News these days is TMZ for Silicon Valley, with the occasional dash of Lisp thrown in. Conversations are usually way off-base and are wildly misrepresentative of reality in many cases. Half the discussions are folks opining on how poorly someone is running a business after digesting several years of Hacker News articles during their work hours at someone else's company, with no actual experience at the helm. I went after one guy for proclaiming that Tim Cook hasn't done shit for Apple in his entire career there, and I couldn't help but imagine the kind of person behind such a comment and it wasn't a pretty picture. The other day's thread about the sale of Sortfolio is a great example of this. The entire thread was arguing with DHH and Jason Fried about their own company's transaction. No, really[1]. There are exceptions. There is the occasional absolutely phenomenal and industry-affecting discussion here. There are people that use their "Hacker News reputation" for good. However, standing atop a pillar of arrogance as tall as "everybody who matters is here" just screams a complete disconnect with how our industry actually works. In the grand scheme of information technology, startups are tiny little mosquitoes that are, with few exceptions, swatted to death quickly and quietly. The occasional mosquito that kills a human, though, is the one that gets press and pays off its investors mightily. That's the golden mosquito, and a whole tribe of mosquito farmers has popped up in pursuit of their payoff. However, simply because a couple mosquitoes have succeeded at killing a human does not, I repeat does not, indicate that the entire world of disease revolves around mosquitoes, nor that a forum discussing mosquitoes is representative of epidemiology as a whole. The average startup employs what, a dozen people? IBM employs more than four hundred thousand[2]. And before you turn around and mock IBM, they've made enough money to research and do great things[3] while your startup is still struggling to come to terms with burn rate in search of that ever-elusive revenue. Please dig yourself out of the hole of narcissism and reconnect with reality. Hacker News is not the entire world, and more than half of the movers and shakers in the industry have probably never even glanced at a comment thread. I will ever remain relieved if that fact does not change. An aside which reinforces that point: After getting hellbanned, I stopped worrying about combating stupidity in Hacker News threads. I stopped reading most of them, to be quite honest. I relaunched my blog and wrote a long essay I've been meaning to write about how Python decorators work[4] which before, I could never seem to find the time for. I adopted an ethos of using my time for sharing knowledge instead of arguing about pointless shit, like Sortfolio's acquisition price or what the meaning of Steve Jobs parking in a handicap space is or what some UI designer named Dustin Curtis thinks about Quora's latest funding round. I'm learning to listen to what people have to say rather than waiting for my turn to speak, just to refute my conversational opponent's take on Microsoft as if it matters or has any bearing on my life whatsoever. The effect that removing frequent Hacker News contribution has had on me as a person is nothing short of extraordinary, so if "everybody that matters" is here, God help our industry. [1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4191233 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4191233 [2]: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/performers/companies/biggest/ http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/perfo... [3]: http://www-03.ibm.com/innovation/us/watson/index.html http://www-03.ibm.com/innovation/us/watson/index.html [4]: http://jedsmith.org/post/python-decorators.html http://jedsmith.org/post/python-decorators.html
- coob 14y ago
  I love how "minimallyminimal" is an oxymoron.
jessedhillon 14y ago
Nobody cares what HN thinks.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  ... Then what are you doing in these here comments?
  - jessedhillon 14y ago
    People don't care what hacker/nerd types think because of things like this comment. Insisting on a pedantic interpretation of a comment, whose meaning should be obvious, suggests an inability to tolerate even minor variances from a desired ideal. This is typical of the engineer's mindset -- everything which doesn't conform to an archetype or classification system is flawed or contradictory. I'm reading these comments because occasionaly I find something interesting. I would never conclude that something either has or lacks value based on the sentiments expressed by HN commenters, which was the point of my response.
    - potatolicious 14y ago
      > " suggests an inability to tolerate even minor variances from a desired ideal... everything which doesn't conform to an archetype or classification system is flawed or contradictory." You seem to have derived a lot from a 9-word comment. You also have an awful lot of confidence you've got my personality pegged, despite having never met me. Let's address the original point, which is "nobody cares what HN thinks" - tossed off-handedly into the thread as a retort. This is a community of people involved in technology startups, ranging from engineers to designers to business folk - it is the precise demographic that has need a designer's skillset, and the precise demographic who collectively sets the design tone for the consumer web. Which isn't to say that HN's word is gospel - far from it - but to reject all criticism under the guise of "nobody cares what [insert lame stereotype about nerds] people think" seems about as presumptuous as assuming HN's collective taste is authoritative. In any case, the purpose here is not to drag Mr. Curtis through the mud, it's to point out that spec redesigns, when not fully thought-through, have historically been roundly attacked in the tech community, by engineers and designers alike, and on HN and abroad. If one is to make a very public display of it, one should be aware of the potential negative press.
redslazer 14y ago
I hadn't heard of that redesign but I went and looked it up. After reading/looking at it I have to say you cant compare the two. Dustin was like "You suck sh*t and im never going to use your business again, so here is redesign of your website. PS all your designers/ux personel are incompetent" while this redesign was more lik "I'm not happy with the way that microsoft has gone so here is a possible alternative". The later being much better than the former even if Dustin has managed to create a pretty strong reputation for himself.
josephcooney 14y ago
Worst case you get a reputation as being a bit opinionated, and learn a whole lot about the kind of things people are going to poke holes in.
medinismo 14y ago
Any amount of work done in the name of making something better should be given the benefit of the doubt and be rewarded. I love the work this dude did - and even if it sucked or missed some important aspect, it deserves a bravo!
SonicSoul 14y ago
still a win/win for the designer. he got the critical eye and lots of feedback from some of the smartest people in tech.

pchristensen 14y ago

HN criticized, but I've heard "the guy who redesigned American's website" referenced in several times from several sources. It spread, it got him a reputation, it gave him a brand! Dustin Curtis is now recognizable in any kind of design discussion. I've never heard of minimallyminimal, but I'll remember "the guy who rebranded Microsoft" for a long time.

the-cakeboss 14y ago
He may be recognizable in a design discussion on HN, but hardly out of this context. Same goes for this guy. That of course is not to say that these sorts of efforts should be avoided, but I do think you are overestimating their impact.
- wilfra 14y ago
  I think you are underestimating the impact of being well known on HN for something like that. Nearly everybody who matters reads this site at least sometimes.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    Nearly everyone who matters reads this site at least sometimes and might possibly come across a discussion about a 3 year old article.
    - pbreit 14y ago
      This is totally false. I would say hat few who "matter" ever visit or participate here. Of the 1000 or so acquaintances of mine in the Bay Area tech industry, man who "matter" I'd say 50, tops, have ever spent much time here and fewer have posted.
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        That's precisely my point :-)
  - jsprink_banned 14y ago
    Although jsprinkles got slowbanned and hellbanned (still unsure why but cannot be bothered; more on that later), I had to create another account just to respond to this. This comment encapsulates, in amazingly succinct fashion, everything that is wrong with Hacker News and the people that participate in this community. I can translate "[n]early everybody who matters" in this context, and it means a subset of Silicon Valley that thinks it is the entire universe. Hacker News these days is TMZ for Silicon Valley, with the occasional dash of Lisp thrown in. Conversations are usually way off-base and are wildly misrepresentative of reality in many cases. Half the discussions are folks opining on how poorly someone is running a business after digesting several years of Hacker News articles during their work hours at someone else's company, with no actual experience at the helm. I went after one guy for proclaiming that Tim Cook hasn't done shit for Apple in his entire career there, and I couldn't help but imagine the kind of person behind such a comment and it wasn't a pretty picture. The other day's thread about the sale of Sortfolio is a great example of this. The entire thread was arguing with DHH and Jason Fried about their own company's transaction. No, really[1]. There are exceptions. There is the occasional absolutely phenomenal and industry-affecting discussion here. There are people that use their "Hacker News reputation" for good. However, standing atop a pillar of arrogance as tall as "everybody who matters is here" just screams a complete disconnect with how our industry actually works. In the grand scheme of information technology, startups are tiny little mosquitoes that are, with few exceptions, swatted to death quickly and quietly. The occasional mosquito that kills a human, though, is the one that gets press and pays off its investors mightily. That's the golden mosquito, and a whole tribe of mosquito farmers has popped up in pursuit of their payoff. However, simply because a couple mosquitoes have succeeded at killing a human does not, I repeat does not, indicate that the entire world of disease revolves around mosquitoes, nor that a forum discussing mosquitoes is representative of epidemiology as a whole. The average startup employs what, a dozen people? IBM employs more than four hundred thousand[2]. And before you turn around and mock IBM, they've made enough money to research and do great things[3] while your startup is still struggling to come to terms with burn rate in search of that ever-elusive revenue. Please dig yourself out of the hole of narcissism and reconnect with reality. Hacker News is not the entire world, and more than half of the movers and shakers in the industry have probably never even glanced at a comment thread. I will ever remain relieved if that fact does not change. An aside which reinforces that point: After getting hellbanned, I stopped worrying about combating stupidity in Hacker News threads. I stopped reading most of them, to be quite honest. I relaunched my blog and wrote a long essay I've been meaning to write about how Python decorators work[4] which before, I could never seem to find the time for. I adopted an ethos of using my time for sharing knowledge instead of arguing about pointless shit, like Sortfolio's acquisition price or what the meaning of Steve Jobs parking in a handicap space is or what some UI designer named Dustin Curtis thinks about Quora's latest funding round. I'm learning to listen to what people have to say rather than waiting for my turn to speak, just to refute my conversational opponent's take on Microsoft as if it matters or has any bearing on my life whatsoever. The effect that removing frequent Hacker News contribution has had on me as a person is nothing short of extraordinary, so if "everybody that matters" is here, God help our industry. [1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4191233 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4191233 [2]: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/performers/companies/biggest/ http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/perfo... [3]: http://www-03.ibm.com/innovation/us/watson/index.html http://www-03.ibm.com/innovation/us/watson/index.html [4]: http://jedsmith.org/post/python-decorators.html http://jedsmith.org/post/python-decorators.html
coob 14y ago
I love how "minimallyminimal" is an oxymoron.

jessedhillon 14y ago

Nobody cares what HN thinks.

potatolicious 14y ago
... Then what are you doing in these here comments?
- jessedhillon 14y ago
  People don't care what hacker/nerd types think because of things like this comment. Insisting on a pedantic interpretation of a comment, whose meaning should be obvious, suggests an inability to tolerate even minor variances from a desired ideal. This is typical of the engineer's mindset -- everything which doesn't conform to an archetype or classification system is flawed or contradictory. I'm reading these comments because occasionaly I find something interesting. I would never conclude that something either has or lacks value based on the sentiments expressed by HN commenters, which was the point of my response.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    > " suggests an inability to tolerate even minor variances from a desired ideal... everything which doesn't conform to an archetype or classification system is flawed or contradictory." You seem to have derived a lot from a 9-word comment. You also have an awful lot of confidence you've got my personality pegged, despite having never met me. Let's address the original point, which is "nobody cares what HN thinks" - tossed off-handedly into the thread as a retort. This is a community of people involved in technology startups, ranging from engineers to designers to business folk - it is the precise demographic that has need a designer's skillset, and the precise demographic who collectively sets the design tone for the consumer web. Which isn't to say that HN's word is gospel - far from it - but to reject all criticism under the guise of "nobody cares what [insert lame stereotype about nerds] people think" seems about as presumptuous as assuming HN's collective taste is authoritative. In any case, the purpose here is not to drag Mr. Curtis through the mud, it's to point out that spec redesigns, when not fully thought-through, have historically been roundly attacked in the tech community, by engineers and designers alike, and on HN and abroad. If one is to make a very public display of it, one should be aware of the potential negative press.

redslazer 14y ago

I hadn't heard of that redesign but I went and looked it up. After reading/looking at it I have to say you cant compare the two. Dustin was like "You suck sh*t and im never going to use your business again, so here is redesign of your website. PS all your designers/ux personel are incompetent" while this redesign was more lik "I'm not happy with the way that microsoft has gone so here is a possible alternative". The later being much better than the former even if Dustin has managed to create a pretty strong reputation for himself.

josephcooney 14y ago

Worst case you get a reputation as being a bit opinionated, and learn a whole lot about the kind of things people are going to poke holes in.

medinismo 14y ago

Any amount of work done in the name of making something better should be given the benefit of the doubt and be rewarded. I love the work this dude did - and even if it sucked or missed some important aspect, it deserves a bravo!

SonicSoul 14y ago

still a win/win for the designer. he got the critical eye and lots of feedback from some of the smartest people in tech.