6 ms·

And staying in school through college is a great way to be in debt for the rest of your life and regret having a useless degree.

electriclove 2y ago
So true.. we need to make college ultra low cost, accessible to all, AND useful
- fallingknife 2y ago
  We have already dumbed college down so much to make it accessible to so many. The last thing we need to do is dumb it down further so that everybody can go. 17 years of education isn't really any better than 13. The only reason a college degree was ever worth anything was because it was taught at a high level that most people would never be able to pass.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - drakonka 2y ago
    Are students less motivated or disciplined in the US than other parts of the developed world where higher education is free/compensated?
    - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
      Many educators have pointed out that cuts in government funding for higher education in the US now mean that the student is the paying customer and, as they say, "the customer is always right". Institutions have financial motivations to overlook students' incompetence, cheating, and other misbehavior as long as they keep paying tuition fees.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        I bet those students with free rides (and free loans) would do better in college if they were required to hold down a job to pay for some of that. I know I became more diligent with my studies when I started writing tuition checks out of my earnings.
        paulryanrogers 2y ago
        When my parents couldn't help with college payments, I did worse because of stress and divided attention
        WalterBright 2y ago
        Helping you implies you were also contributing to the payments.
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        And also implies that they lived through an example that disproves your supposition.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      It's just human nature, and human nature is the same everywhere. I know a German who spent over 20 years in the German university system, taking advantage of every free program so she wouldn't have to get a job. For a well known trope, the spawn of first generation wealthy people tend to dissipate that wealth. They didn't work for it, and so they don't value it. It's why people look down on nepotism. Things not earned are not valued.
      - drakonka 2y ago
        And I know an American who spent years trying to get through a degree program that he never ended up completing because he was too burned out having to work multiple jobs to live at the same time. Just like I know plenty of Swedes who have and continue to study, developing their knowledge and curiosity for free while being enthusiastically productive members of society. We all have anecdotes.
  - haccount 2y ago
    There's large parts of the world where college and university have zero tuition fees and still doesn't turn into ceaseless roman orgies.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      One then wonders why so many foreign students come to American universities and pay high tuitions when there are better free ones at home.
      - inglor_cz 2y ago
        Cheap studies don't turn students into mindless debauchery-loving zombies, but they also put a pretty hard cap on the professors' salaries. As long as your school is really a not-for-profit organization, salaries will be mediocre. Elite American universities can attract top scientific talent from overseas with good salaries and very well equipped labs, because they have the money. This, in turn, attracts foreign students.
    - latency-guy2 2y ago
      Which ones? I know a few countries with those qualities, some of them filter out the bad students really early on or into another stream of education (typically slower, lower quality), as in before you're 9, not 20.
  - pyrale 2y ago
    Money is not the only way to weed out underachieving students, or to motivate the good ones. It’s not a theoretic point either, plenty of universities do it right now.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      I never said it was the only way. But it is effective.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    My dad (career military) told me that army boots lasted 3 times longer when the GIs bought them out of their uniform allowance (and could keep unspent funds), rather than being issued boots. He always laughed about that. When I was old enough to do work, he'd have me buy my own shoes :-)
WalterBright 2y ago
It's easy to distinguish the worthless degrees from the valuable ones. Google the starting salaries of each major. If a person picks a useless major, the decision is on them.
- huuhee3 2y ago
  Society (and parents) still should have some responsibility on educating young people about career prospects of different degrees. Too many in older generations think any degree will land their children a job, and thus encourage them to study whatever they like.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    I think school system is hugely failing students if they are not instructed and then capable of spending one or two afternoons on simply googling and looking at career prospects and what different jobs actually might entail. And then at least with minimal criticality thinking is that for them. I am pretty sure there is no careers you cannot find some information on with rather simple searches.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      This belief that "a degree, any degree" is sufficient must have started after I went to University (mid-90s), because when I was a teenager, it was drilled into us that we need to not only go to University, but we need to major in something lucrative. Nobody, from parents to guidance counsellors, was saying "Oh, just go to college and major in anything, it doesn't matter!"
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      The younger generation that grew up with Google never think to google "starting salary for [my] major"? They need to be coached to do it? Try it. Gott im Himmel!
- Nevermark 2y ago
  > It's easy to distinguish the worthless degrees from the valuable ones. Google the starting salaries of each major. Agreed. > If a person picks a useless major, the decision is on them. Not just them. Their parents, the school, etc. There are so many "simple" things to know. Too many for them to always be obvious, even when they "obviously" should be. A mistake that a million young students make is a mistake worth updating the educational system to handle better. And as an objective practical matter, it is always on society. Society systematically loses masses of individual potential by not providing more guidance when it matters. (And perversely turning education into an easy loan factory, regardless of expected income, the opposite of good guidance.)

electriclove 2y ago

So true.. we need to make college ultra low cost, accessible to all, AND useful

fallingknife 2y ago
We have already dumbed college down so much to make it accessible to so many. The last thing we need to do is dumb it down further so that everybody can go. 17 years of education isn't really any better than 13. The only reason a college degree was ever worth anything was because it was taught at a high level that most people would never be able to pass.
WalterBright 2y ago
[flagged]
- drakonka 2y ago
  Are students less motivated or disciplined in the US than other parts of the developed world where higher education is free/compensated?
  - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    Many educators have pointed out that cuts in government funding for higher education in the US now mean that the student is the paying customer and, as they say, "the customer is always right". Institutions have financial motivations to overlook students' incompetence, cheating, and other misbehavior as long as they keep paying tuition fees.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      I bet those students with free rides (and free loans) would do better in college if they were required to hold down a job to pay for some of that. I know I became more diligent with my studies when I started writing tuition checks out of my earnings.
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
        When my parents couldn't help with college payments, I did worse because of stress and divided attention
        WalterBright 2y ago
        Helping you implies you were also contributing to the payments.
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        And also implies that they lived through an example that disproves your supposition.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    It's just human nature, and human nature is the same everywhere. I know a German who spent over 20 years in the German university system, taking advantage of every free program so she wouldn't have to get a job. For a well known trope, the spawn of first generation wealthy people tend to dissipate that wealth. They didn't work for it, and so they don't value it. It's why people look down on nepotism. Things not earned are not valued.
    - drakonka 2y ago
      And I know an American who spent years trying to get through a degree program that he never ended up completing because he was too burned out having to work multiple jobs to live at the same time. Just like I know plenty of Swedes who have and continue to study, developing their knowledge and curiosity for free while being enthusiastically productive members of society. We all have anecdotes.
- haccount 2y ago
  There's large parts of the world where college and university have zero tuition fees and still doesn't turn into ceaseless roman orgies.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    One then wonders why so many foreign students come to American universities and pay high tuitions when there are better free ones at home.
    - inglor_cz 2y ago
      Cheap studies don't turn students into mindless debauchery-loving zombies, but they also put a pretty hard cap on the professors' salaries. As long as your school is really a not-for-profit organization, salaries will be mediocre. Elite American universities can attract top scientific talent from overseas with good salaries and very well equipped labs, because they have the money. This, in turn, attracts foreign students.
  - latency-guy2 2y ago
    Which ones? I know a few countries with those qualities, some of them filter out the bad students really early on or into another stream of education (typically slower, lower quality), as in before you're 9, not 20.
- pyrale 2y ago
  Money is not the only way to weed out underachieving students, or to motivate the good ones. It’s not a theoretic point either, plenty of universities do it right now.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    I never said it was the only way. But it is effective.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  My dad (career military) told me that army boots lasted 3 times longer when the GIs bought them out of their uniform allowance (and could keep unspent funds), rather than being issued boots. He always laughed about that. When I was old enough to do work, he'd have me buy my own shoes :-)

WalterBright 2y ago

It's easy to distinguish the worthless degrees from the valuable ones. Google the starting salaries of each major. If a person picks a useless major, the decision is on them.

huuhee3 2y ago
Society (and parents) still should have some responsibility on educating young people about career prospects of different degrees. Too many in older generations think any degree will land their children a job, and thus encourage them to study whatever they like.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  I think school system is hugely failing students if they are not instructed and then capable of spending one or two afternoons on simply googling and looking at career prospects and what different jobs actually might entail. And then at least with minimal criticality thinking is that for them. I am pretty sure there is no careers you cannot find some information on with rather simple searches.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    This belief that "a degree, any degree" is sufficient must have started after I went to University (mid-90s), because when I was a teenager, it was drilled into us that we need to not only go to University, but we need to major in something lucrative. Nobody, from parents to guidance counsellors, was saying "Oh, just go to college and major in anything, it doesn't matter!"
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    The younger generation that grew up with Google never think to google "starting salary for [my] major"? They need to be coached to do it? Try it. Gott im Himmel!
Nevermark 2y ago
> It's easy to distinguish the worthless degrees from the valuable ones. Google the starting salaries of each major. Agreed. > If a person picks a useless major, the decision is on them. Not just them. Their parents, the school, etc. There are so many "simple" things to know. Too many for them to always be obvious, even when they "obviously" should be. A mistake that a million young students make is a mistake worth updating the educational system to handle better. And as an objective practical matter, it is always on society. Society systematically loses masses of individual potential by not providing more guidance when it matters. (And perversely turning education into an easy loan factory, regardless of expected income, the opposite of good guidance.)