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Why doesn't this set up specific criteria at the beginning based on references to the people who came up with the term, and apply those criteria to each work it

Why doesn't this set up specific criteria at the beginning based on references to the people who came up with the term, and apply those criteria to each work it goes over? [Also, why aren't there links to the works that are out of copyright?][Correction: there are, they're just all collected at the end. Makes the article completely worthwhile actually.] Instead it starts with a random NYT-genre list of "acclaimed" comics, says almost nothing about what they have in common other than that people might have heard of them, then applies shifting criteria for a "graphic novel" as it goes through a list of old comics. I would call this half-assed, but they clearly put some work into it. But why tell me that something is not a graphic novel because it is too short, never having previously established a specific length requirement, without saying how short the thing is, and without providing a link to the thing if it is out of copyright? > Do you believe me if I say that these panels are different from the panels of Saddlebags? I hope so. And I'm supposed to just trust the author that the two Clowes panels are subtly different than the panels from the item above (judged a non-"graphic novel"?) Is it because they didn't have time to explain such subtlety? The list may be good (I have no idea how comprehensive it is or how much was ignored), but the commentary is bad. edit: honestly, this sort of random rambling seems like more work than just being clear about what you're looking for and specific about why you haven't found it.

Nevermark 2y ago
> But why tell me that something is not a graphic novel because it is too short, never having previously established a specific length requirement Because this (personally driven) discovery of the first American graphic novel, is itself, written as a narrative of thought. I expect many, if not most, definitions of the first species of some group were defined in response to the search for some intuited threshold in the same way. We get “clean” seemingly obvious definitions after the fact. That hide how much the definition got crafted to fit the emergent particulars, instead of the particulars being sifted through a preceding clear definition. Unlike math & physics, delineations in history emerge from accumulations of happenstance, not fundamental principles.
- mamcx 2y ago
  I like it how is done in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UrExample https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UrExample Often, an Ur-Example doubles as the Trope Maker — but not always, and far less often with ancient tropes, which often evolved over a long period of time rather than suddenly bursting forth from someone's head, fully formed. When they're distinct, a Trope Maker differs from an Ur-Example in that the latter is realized to have met the definition of the trope only after later storytellers started doing it on purpose. The started doing it on purpose means that something arise first but could take some time to get into the `shape` we recognize as such.
fsckboy 2y ago
with written literature, did anybody ever tell you the specific difference between a short story, a novella, and a novel, or did you just pick it up from repetition of contexts? is it hard for you to imagine that those concepts couldn't be naturally transferred to graphic literature, with mutatis mutandis as your modus operandus?

Nevermark 2y ago

> But why tell me that something is not a graphic novel because it is too short, never having previously established a specific length requirement Because this (personally driven) discovery of the first American graphic novel, is itself, written as a narrative of thought. I expect many, if not most, definitions of the first species of some group were defined in response to the search for some intuited threshold in the same way. We get “clean” seemingly obvious definitions after the fact. That hide how much the definition got crafted to fit the emergent particulars, instead of the particulars being sifted through a preceding clear definition. Unlike math & physics, delineations in history emerge from accumulations of happenstance, not fundamental principles.

mamcx 2y ago
I like it how is done in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UrExample https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UrExample Often, an Ur-Example doubles as the Trope Maker — but not always, and far less often with ancient tropes, which often evolved over a long period of time rather than suddenly bursting forth from someone's head, fully formed. When they're distinct, a Trope Maker differs from an Ur-Example in that the latter is realized to have met the definition of the trope only after later storytellers started doing it on purpose. The started doing it on purpose means that something arise first but could take some time to get into the `shape` we recognize as such.

fsckboy 2y ago

with written literature, did anybody ever tell you the specific difference between a short story, a novella, and a novel, or did you just pick it up from repetition of contexts? is it hard for you to imagine that those concepts couldn't be naturally transferred to graphic literature, with mutatis mutandis as your modus operandus?