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30,000 monthly active users doesn't sound as a particularly high load. Why were they running out of funds? You can rent a cheapest dedicated server on Hetzner

30,000 monthly active users doesn't sound as a particularly high load. Why were they running out of funds? You can rent a cheapest dedicated server on Hetzner for, like, $50 - $70 / month and I would expect it to be performant enough to cope with 30k MAU for a simple blogging platform.

d3nj4l 2y ago
Server costs are only part of the problem. They had a team of devs they couldn't afford to pay, they were hosting a lot of media (especially images) and they never quite hit the traction to make the project feel worth doing for free. I fully sympathize with their decision to shut it down instead of letting it run on fumes.
- throwaway313373 2y ago
  I mean, this is a blogging platform. Users, posts, comments, likes, that's about it. People were making blogging platforms since forever. Every web framework tutorial has a "hey, let's make a blog" part. I don't see why would it require a whole team of fulltime devs. Inflating team size, constant feature churn etc all make sense for a VC-funded company. But they were kinda making a statement against it, so there is bo reason for them to have a whole team to maintain a blogging platform. It's hard for me to estimate the cost of media hosting, but again, Hetzner (I'm not advertising them, it's just one dedicated server provider I heard about. There are many others) offers 20 TB / month of free traffic. Is it not enough to serve images at cohost scale? I genuinely do not know, I would love to hear estimates from more knowledgeable/experienced folks. Or was storage the issue? How much storage are we talking about?
  - jeffalyanak 2y ago
    I'm not sure if you actually read their previous financial reports, but their expenses were somewhere around $50,000-60,000, that doesn't indicate an inflated dev budget. If you add up server costs, the cheapest possible accounting and legal services, and any other miscellaneous business costs, it doesn't really leave much of a budget for development.
    - throwaway313373 2y ago
      No, I haven't read their financial reports because I didn't knew they exist. I will take a look, thanks.
      - jeffalyanak 2y ago
        I only knew of them because the top-level comment specifically references the financial updates and some of the numbers from them.
  - 0x073 2y ago
    https://status.cohost.org/ https://status.cohost.org/ I see digitalocean,datadog, aws, mailgun, managed databases kubernetes. That costs much money, that are better spend in some classic server infrastructure like a dedicated server.
    - isoprophlex 2y ago
      The other commenter, Throwaway3... is getting downvoted but I agree with the costs being excessive, tech-wise. This didnt need kubernetes, datadog, all that stuff. This needed a couple of hundred a month in S3 or cloudflare or whatever storage/CDN bills, and a couple of 40$/month hetzner boxes.
      - rendx 2y ago
        Sounds like a back-then reasonable attempt at building something that can be easily scaled and carried certain risks. You simply cannot know after the fact what the basis of the decision and approach to risk was, what the agreeemnts and expectations were of and with the "anonymous investor", etc. "Hindsight is always perfect". Embrace mistakes? They will learn from it, and I'm already looking forward to their new project(s) (and new mistakes)!
        isoprophlex 2y ago
        Yes, of course. You are right and I don't mean to be overly dismissive of them; I applaud their philosophy and mission, and they shipped something many people loved. Just... this comes from some personal lament. Computers are so wonderful. In the time between a photon emerging from your ceiling lamp and hitting the floor, you can crank out 20-30 CPU cycles. Yet an entire breed of developers has been raised to see 2000$/month Postgres RDS on AWS as "the cost of doing business". I wish costs wouldn't hold back great things like this that the internet needs.
        ToucanLoucan 2y ago
        The "web scale" brain rot runs deep. Every project I've done has been PHP, MySQL and JavaScript. I've built software solutions for a number of local businesses that are still running years on virtually unchanged because I just used simple tools, simply. No, none of my stuff has ever hit millions of users, and I suspect if it tried it would blow apart quite quickly, but none of them ever will come to 1/10th of that, and hot take: that's fine.
RodgerTheGreat 2y ago
If you aren't willing to have volunteers do it for free, moderation is by far the most expensive and challenging part of running a social media site. Cohost was both developed and operated by a total of four people, one of whom was a full-time moderator.
- throwaway313373 2y ago
  In the days of the good old internet pre social networks and big tech that so many people are nostalgic about, folks mostly communicated using internet forums that were mostly moderated by enthusiasts. This whole thing strikes me as an attempt to have your cake and eat it to. Trying to recreate the vibes of the old school web that was largely ran by enthusiasts for enthusiasts while actually running it the way a big corp or a VC-funded startup would. I think that this is a little bit hypocritical.
  - RodgerTheGreat 2y ago
    I think you're more than a little bit talking out of your ass. The founders of cohost were very explicit about not wanting to rely upon unpaid volunteer labor to run their site. The fact that they were not able to run the site profitably while adhering to this principle and chose to shut down the site rather than violate their principles is the complete opposite of hypocrisy.
    - spondylosaurus 2y ago
      Maybe not cohost themselves, but I think the person you're replying to has a point re. users with unrealistic expectations. People want services that are free to use, high quality, pruned/moderated, and not run under unethical practices. The problem is you can't get the first three (at scale) unless someone somewhere is working without fair pay, which effectively means you can't have the first three AND the fourth at the same time.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
tomcam 2y ago
Sounds like a real opportunity for someone with your skills.
- throwaway313373 2y ago
  I'm just not interested in building yet another blogging platform, I think that this ship has sailed long time ago. If I ever build some publishing or communication tool it will be as decentralized as possible and as uncensorable as possible.

d3nj4l 2y ago

Server costs are only part of the problem. They had a team of devs they couldn't afford to pay, they were hosting a lot of media (especially images) and they never quite hit the traction to make the project feel worth doing for free. I fully sympathize with their decision to shut it down instead of letting it run on fumes.

throwaway313373 2y ago
I mean, this is a blogging platform. Users, posts, comments, likes, that's about it. People were making blogging platforms since forever. Every web framework tutorial has a "hey, let's make a blog" part. I don't see why would it require a whole team of fulltime devs. Inflating team size, constant feature churn etc all make sense for a VC-funded company. But they were kinda making a statement against it, so there is bo reason for them to have a whole team to maintain a blogging platform. It's hard for me to estimate the cost of media hosting, but again, Hetzner (I'm not advertising them, it's just one dedicated server provider I heard about. There are many others) offers 20 TB / month of free traffic. Is it not enough to serve images at cohost scale? I genuinely do not know, I would love to hear estimates from more knowledgeable/experienced folks. Or was storage the issue? How much storage are we talking about?
- jeffalyanak 2y ago
  I'm not sure if you actually read their previous financial reports, but their expenses were somewhere around $50,000-60,000, that doesn't indicate an inflated dev budget. If you add up server costs, the cheapest possible accounting and legal services, and any other miscellaneous business costs, it doesn't really leave much of a budget for development.
  - throwaway313373 2y ago
    No, I haven't read their financial reports because I didn't knew they exist. I will take a look, thanks.
    - jeffalyanak 2y ago
      I only knew of them because the top-level comment specifically references the financial updates and some of the numbers from them.
- 0x073 2y ago
  https://status.cohost.org/ https://status.cohost.org/ I see digitalocean,datadog, aws, mailgun, managed databases kubernetes. That costs much money, that are better spend in some classic server infrastructure like a dedicated server.
  - isoprophlex 2y ago
    The other commenter, Throwaway3... is getting downvoted but I agree with the costs being excessive, tech-wise. This didnt need kubernetes, datadog, all that stuff. This needed a couple of hundred a month in S3 or cloudflare or whatever storage/CDN bills, and a couple of 40$/month hetzner boxes.
    - rendx 2y ago
      Sounds like a back-then reasonable attempt at building something that can be easily scaled and carried certain risks. You simply cannot know after the fact what the basis of the decision and approach to risk was, what the agreeemnts and expectations were of and with the "anonymous investor", etc. "Hindsight is always perfect". Embrace mistakes? They will learn from it, and I'm already looking forward to their new project(s) (and new mistakes)!
      - isoprophlex 2y ago
        Yes, of course. You are right and I don't mean to be overly dismissive of them; I applaud their philosophy and mission, and they shipped something many people loved. Just... this comes from some personal lament. Computers are so wonderful. In the time between a photon emerging from your ceiling lamp and hitting the floor, you can crank out 20-30 CPU cycles. Yet an entire breed of developers has been raised to see 2000$/month Postgres RDS on AWS as "the cost of doing business". I wish costs wouldn't hold back great things like this that the internet needs.
        ToucanLoucan 2y ago
        The "web scale" brain rot runs deep. Every project I've done has been PHP, MySQL and JavaScript. I've built software solutions for a number of local businesses that are still running years on virtually unchanged because I just used simple tools, simply. No, none of my stuff has ever hit millions of users, and I suspect if it tried it would blow apart quite quickly, but none of them ever will come to 1/10th of that, and hot take: that's fine.

RodgerTheGreat 2y ago

If you aren't willing to have volunteers do it for free, moderation is by far the most expensive and challenging part of running a social media site. Cohost was both developed and operated by a total of four people, one of whom was a full-time moderator.

throwaway313373 2y ago
In the days of the good old internet pre social networks and big tech that so many people are nostalgic about, folks mostly communicated using internet forums that were mostly moderated by enthusiasts. This whole thing strikes me as an attempt to have your cake and eat it to. Trying to recreate the vibes of the old school web that was largely ran by enthusiasts for enthusiasts while actually running it the way a big corp or a VC-funded startup would. I think that this is a little bit hypocritical.
- RodgerTheGreat 2y ago
  I think you're more than a little bit talking out of your ass. The founders of cohost were very explicit about not wanting to rely upon unpaid volunteer labor to run their site. The fact that they were not able to run the site profitably while adhering to this principle and chose to shut down the site rather than violate their principles is the complete opposite of hypocrisy.
  - spondylosaurus 2y ago
    Maybe not cohost themselves, but I think the person you're replying to has a point re. users with unrealistic expectations. People want services that are free to use, high quality, pruned/moderated, and not run under unethical practices. The problem is you can't get the first three (at scale) unless someone somewhere is working without fair pay, which effectively means you can't have the first three AND the fourth at the same time.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

tomcam 2y ago

Sounds like a real opportunity for someone with your skills.

throwaway313373 2y ago
I'm just not interested in building yet another blogging platform, I think that this ship has sailed long time ago. If I ever build some publishing or communication tool it will be as decentralized as possible and as uncensorable as possible.