4 ms·

Ah yes, the fake line of argument that for airplanes you have to drive an hour to get to the airport two hours before your flight, while in the case of trains,

Ah yes, the fake line of argument that for airplanes you have to drive an hour to get to the airport two hours before your flight, while in the case of trains, a powerful genie comes into your house, packs your suitcase and whisks you away in his powerful arms directly to your seat on the train 13.21 seconds prior to departure. It's BS. In existing cities, train stations are just as hard to build in the city center as airports -- neither happens. You do not in fact need to get to airports hours in advance, and security theater in airports is still excruciating, but you can get PreCheck or Clear and cut the time way down. There is some time advantage to boarding trains, but it's on the order of 20-40 minutes, not hours. Paris and London are only 213 miles apart! It's about 2/3rds the distance that SF is from LA, much less say SF to Seattle or NYC to Chicago. Rail travel works great in Europe because distances are small, density is high, and the cities grew up centered around rail infrastructure.

em-bee 2y ago
In existing cities, train stations are just as hard to build in the city center as airports -- neither happens only in countries where they neglected building train stations before the cities grew to todays sizes. but even then it's not true. US cities are less dense, so it should be easier to find space. train stations are also much much smaller than airports and trains don't make as much noise as airplanes. there are many more reasons not to build airports in the middle of a city, none of which apply to trains. the main problem for trains is finding a route for the track into the city. that can be and is solved with tunnels though. or the chinese approach where the high speed trainstations are sometimes built away from the center of the city and instead the center is connected by a dense network of subway lines. a process that started less than 20 years ago but now puts many chinese cities at the top of the list of the largest subway networks in the world.
- aetherson 2y ago
  So you're saying first we should invent time travel. Sounds practical! If you want to build a transit hub outside the city center and link it via subway, that's no easier or more convenient for a train station than for an airport.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    what i am saying is that i realize that building central trainstations in US cities is a bit harder due to not being able to reuse existing historical trainstations, it is certainly not as hard as building a central airport. and most importantly, it would be easier than in a comparable european city without a central trainstation because european cities tend to have dense historical centers where you can't build, whereas in the US it is probably possible to find some sufficiently central property that is up for redevelopment.
Symbiote 2y ago
London built several new stations in the centre of the city within the last few years, for the new Elizabeth Line. London Bridge, a major station, was rebuilt. Euston Station has a planned large expansion. It's impossible to build an airport in a city centre.
- ghaff 2y ago
  Not in a city center perhaps but Boston Logan is pretty close and London City isn't bad either.
vel0city 2y ago
> but it's on the order of 20-40 minutes, not hours Just driving to the airport in Denver is nearly an hour for most of the city. It'll take a half hour to get from Uptown Dallas or Frisco or Saginaw to DFW. It's like a half hour to get from Orlando International to any of the Disney resorts. About 20 minutes from downtown KC to MCI. All of this is without any time parking or going through security and assuming traffic doesn't get bad. Dallas has a train station downtown. Same with Fort Worth. Kansas City Union Station is downtown. Manhattan has several train stations. A lot of cities have a big train station downtown, as many cities were built around the train station. A decently sized train station uses considerably less space than a busy airport. Which of these seem easier for the people in the city to actually get to and use? Dallas Union Station: https://maps.app.goo.gl/aMwyguz98hptWPNo6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/aMwyguz98hptWPNo6 DFW Airport: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5iUpUoqvUkhJr1D98 https://maps.app.goo.gl/5iUpUoqvUkhJr1D98 Penn Station: https://maps.app.goo.gl/JysFmwFhc3cwqHLC6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/JysFmwFhc3cwqHLC6 JFK Airport: https://maps.app.goo.gl/MHWe4UM4wCk9iL1F7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/MHWe4UM4wCk9iL1F7 Don't get me wrong, I agree even door to door air travel will usually be faster when talking about the kinds of distances a lot of US travelers go at and often people act like a train is 0 minutes of time getting to/from the station, but arguing the whole travel time getting to/from the airport and dealing with more security is only 20 minutes is a massive stretch for a ton of Americans. Most people should budget probably an hour before their scheduled boarding time to deal with the about half hour drive, the time navigating the airport, and the time dealing with security. Plus add another half hour after landing to actually get someplace interesting.
- aetherson 2y ago
  And then there's San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New Orleans... there are plenty of cities that have airports that are very convenient to them, and train stations that aren't. My point is if you have a substantial sized city that does not already have a large train station in its center, you aren't building a train station in its center, in the same way that if your city doesn't have an airport that you've built up around, you aren't going to build it. We're all at the mercy of history here, unless you're going to try to build a new planned community where there currently is only light population.

em-bee 2y ago

In existing cities, train stations are just as hard to build in the city center as airports -- neither happens only in countries where they neglected building train stations before the cities grew to todays sizes. but even then it's not true. US cities are less dense, so it should be easier to find space. train stations are also much much smaller than airports and trains don't make as much noise as airplanes. there are many more reasons not to build airports in the middle of a city, none of which apply to trains. the main problem for trains is finding a route for the track into the city. that can be and is solved with tunnels though. or the chinese approach where the high speed trainstations are sometimes built away from the center of the city and instead the center is connected by a dense network of subway lines. a process that started less than 20 years ago but now puts many chinese cities at the top of the list of the largest subway networks in the world.

aetherson 2y ago
So you're saying first we should invent time travel. Sounds practical! If you want to build a transit hub outside the city center and link it via subway, that's no easier or more convenient for a train station than for an airport.
- em-bee 2y ago
  what i am saying is that i realize that building central trainstations in US cities is a bit harder due to not being able to reuse existing historical trainstations, it is certainly not as hard as building a central airport. and most importantly, it would be easier than in a comparable european city without a central trainstation because european cities tend to have dense historical centers where you can't build, whereas in the US it is probably possible to find some sufficiently central property that is up for redevelopment.

Symbiote 2y ago

London built several new stations in the centre of the city within the last few years, for the new Elizabeth Line. London Bridge, a major station, was rebuilt. Euston Station has a planned large expansion. It's impossible to build an airport in a city centre.

ghaff 2y ago
Not in a city center perhaps but Boston Logan is pretty close and London City isn't bad either.

vel0city 2y ago

> but it's on the order of 20-40 minutes, not hours Just driving to the airport in Denver is nearly an hour for most of the city. It'll take a half hour to get from Uptown Dallas or Frisco or Saginaw to DFW. It's like a half hour to get from Orlando International to any of the Disney resorts. About 20 minutes from downtown KC to MCI. All of this is without any time parking or going through security and assuming traffic doesn't get bad. Dallas has a train station downtown. Same with Fort Worth. Kansas City Union Station is downtown. Manhattan has several train stations. A lot of cities have a big train station downtown, as many cities were built around the train station. A decently sized train station uses considerably less space than a busy airport. Which of these seem easier for the people in the city to actually get to and use? Dallas Union Station: https://maps.app.goo.gl/aMwyguz98hptWPNo6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/aMwyguz98hptWPNo6 DFW Airport: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5iUpUoqvUkhJr1D98 https://maps.app.goo.gl/5iUpUoqvUkhJr1D98 Penn Station: https://maps.app.goo.gl/JysFmwFhc3cwqHLC6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/JysFmwFhc3cwqHLC6 JFK Airport: https://maps.app.goo.gl/MHWe4UM4wCk9iL1F7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/MHWe4UM4wCk9iL1F7 Don't get me wrong, I agree even door to door air travel will usually be faster when talking about the kinds of distances a lot of US travelers go at and often people act like a train is 0 minutes of time getting to/from the station, but arguing the whole travel time getting to/from the airport and dealing with more security is only 20 minutes is a massive stretch for a ton of Americans. Most people should budget probably an hour before their scheduled boarding time to deal with the about half hour drive, the time navigating the airport, and the time dealing with security. Plus add another half hour after landing to actually get someplace interesting.

aetherson 2y ago
And then there's San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New Orleans... there are plenty of cities that have airports that are very convenient to them, and train stations that aren't. My point is if you have a substantial sized city that does not already have a large train station in its center, you aren't building a train station in its center, in the same way that if your city doesn't have an airport that you've built up around, you aren't going to build it. We're all at the mercy of history here, unless you're going to try to build a new planned community where there currently is only light population.