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I think there is something fundamentally different between religious texts and even mostyths and fantasy/sci-fi stories. When the Mesopotamians were listening t

I think there is something fundamentally different between religious texts and even mostyths and fantasy/sci-fi stories. When the Mesopotamians were listening to the Epic of Gilgamesh, they were reading about the world as they thought it is. When the ancient Jews were listening to stories of Genesis or Moses, they were reading about what they believed the world to be. Even to the extent that they believed certain aspects of those stories to be parables and not an exact description of reality, the main point was to elucidate aspects of what the real world is, or how it should be. In contrast, when you read The Lord of the Rings, you're reading a pure fantasy, about a world that you're not expected to believe is real in any particular way, and where the reflections on any real world concepts are buried deep in the subtext (unlike, say, a teaching by the Buddha).

krisoft 2y ago
> When the Mesopotamians were listening to the Epic of Gilgamesh, they were reading about the world as they thought it is. How do we know this?
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  We know by the number of real kings who claimed descent from Gilgamesh that there were enough people who believed this that it was worth it politically. Same as we know enough people in medieval Europe believed in the literal truth of Christianity to make it worth for kings to claim to be chosen by God for their purpose. Contrast this to the lack of modern day leaders claiming descent from Batman, or claiming the legitimacy of the Ministry of Magic. Of course, there would have certainly been people who did not believe in the literal truth of these stories - either as some form of early naturalism, or simply because they believed in other stories (like how devout Christians view the Bible as literal truth, but think the Veddas are just stories, and vice versa).
fidotron 2y ago
> When the Mesopotamians were listening to the Epic of Gilgamesh, they were reading about the world as they thought it is. When people tell their kids about Santa Claus is that because they believe he exists? There are always credulous people, but even in highly religious communities you will find amazingly large numbers of people only there for the community and just going along with public displays of adherence to whatever the belief system is. “True believer” is a term for a good reason.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  Absolutely, I didn't mean to suggest that every single Mesopotamian thought that the Epic of Gilgamesh was the truth. But even looking at non-devout Christians today, I don't think many of them would call the Bible a work of fiction - they view it as something less than an accurate account of history, but not at all as fictional. I would bet that if you asked the majority of Christians, even the non-practicing ones, they'd believe Noah was a real person who really did worship God, and maybe even faced some kind of flood, and probably lived to an old age - even when they don't believe that he built an arch that literally housed two of every animal on Earth to traverse a global flood, or that he lived for 900+ years.
llm_trw 2y ago
> The Lord of the Rings Lord of the Rings is a Catholic Christian morality tale set in the third age of our world. We are now in the year 2024 of the seventh age. It is our world and it is no more or less fiction than the Song of Roland is. I wish more people would read what the authors meant their worlds to be because a lot of what's described as 'merely fiction' is nothing of the sort.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  > Lord of the Rings is a Catholic Christian morality tale set in the third age of our world. We are now in the year 2024 of the seventh age. It is our world and it is no more or less fiction than the Song of Roland is. This is contradictory. The Catholic Church has its own history of the world, which is set down in the Bible, and they would consider any alternative history -- such as the one Tolkien wrote about, if you've interpreted it correctly -- to be a heresy. Simple as that. St. Augustine wrote of Six Ages: The First "is from the beginning of the human race, that is, from Adam, who was the first man that was made, down to Noah, who constructed the ark at the time of the flood". The Second "extends from that period on to Abraham, who was called the father indeed of all nations". The Third "extends from Abraham on to David the king". The Fourth is "from David on to that captivity whereby the people of God passed over into Babylonia". The Fifth is "from that transmigration down to the advent of our Lord Jesus Christ" The Sixth: "With His coming the sixth age has entered on its process."
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  I have no idea where you came up with this, but it is completely false. While there are clear aspects of Christian morals in Lord of the Rings, it would have been extremely clearly heretical if it had been ever claimed to be a real account (as it has a completely different God, Eru Iluvatar, as the creator, for example). Not to mention, Tolkien has written quite a bit about the three ages preceding The Third Age (the Dawn Age and the two numbered ages), and there is no mention of Adam, Eve, God, King Solomon, Moses, Noah, the Flood, or any other parts of the Christian mythos of the first few ages. And there are a great many more evil lords, giant spiders, winged eagles, and magical rings then you'll find in any Bible.

krisoft 2y ago

> When the Mesopotamians were listening to the Epic of Gilgamesh, they were reading about the world as they thought it is. How do we know this?

tsimionescu 2y ago
We know by the number of real kings who claimed descent from Gilgamesh that there were enough people who believed this that it was worth it politically. Same as we know enough people in medieval Europe believed in the literal truth of Christianity to make it worth for kings to claim to be chosen by God for their purpose. Contrast this to the lack of modern day leaders claiming descent from Batman, or claiming the legitimacy of the Ministry of Magic. Of course, there would have certainly been people who did not believe in the literal truth of these stories - either as some form of early naturalism, or simply because they believed in other stories (like how devout Christians view the Bible as literal truth, but think the Veddas are just stories, and vice versa).

fidotron 2y ago

> When the Mesopotamians were listening to the Epic of Gilgamesh, they were reading about the world as they thought it is. When people tell their kids about Santa Claus is that because they believe he exists? There are always credulous people, but even in highly religious communities you will find amazingly large numbers of people only there for the community and just going along with public displays of adherence to whatever the belief system is. “True believer” is a term for a good reason.

tsimionescu 2y ago
Absolutely, I didn't mean to suggest that every single Mesopotamian thought that the Epic of Gilgamesh was the truth. But even looking at non-devout Christians today, I don't think many of them would call the Bible a work of fiction - they view it as something less than an accurate account of history, but not at all as fictional. I would bet that if you asked the majority of Christians, even the non-practicing ones, they'd believe Noah was a real person who really did worship God, and maybe even faced some kind of flood, and probably lived to an old age - even when they don't believe that he built an arch that literally housed two of every animal on Earth to traverse a global flood, or that he lived for 900+ years.

llm_trw 2y ago

> The Lord of the Rings Lord of the Rings is a Catholic Christian morality tale set in the third age of our world. We are now in the year 2024 of the seventh age. It is our world and it is no more or less fiction than the Song of Roland is. I wish more people would read what the authors meant their worlds to be because a lot of what's described as 'merely fiction' is nothing of the sort.

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
> Lord of the Rings is a Catholic Christian morality tale set in the third age of our world. We are now in the year 2024 of the seventh age. It is our world and it is no more or less fiction than the Song of Roland is. This is contradictory. The Catholic Church has its own history of the world, which is set down in the Bible, and they would consider any alternative history -- such as the one Tolkien wrote about, if you've interpreted it correctly -- to be a heresy. Simple as that. St. Augustine wrote of Six Ages: The First "is from the beginning of the human race, that is, from Adam, who was the first man that was made, down to Noah, who constructed the ark at the time of the flood". The Second "extends from that period on to Abraham, who was called the father indeed of all nations". The Third "extends from Abraham on to David the king". The Fourth is "from David on to that captivity whereby the people of God passed over into Babylonia". The Fifth is "from that transmigration down to the advent of our Lord Jesus Christ" The Sixth: "With His coming the sixth age has entered on its process."
tsimionescu 2y ago
I have no idea where you came up with this, but it is completely false. While there are clear aspects of Christian morals in Lord of the Rings, it would have been extremely clearly heretical if it had been ever claimed to be a real account (as it has a completely different God, Eru Iluvatar, as the creator, for example). Not to mention, Tolkien has written quite a bit about the three ages preceding The Third Age (the Dawn Age and the two numbered ages), and there is no mention of Adam, Eve, God, King Solomon, Moses, Noah, the Flood, or any other parts of the Christian mythos of the first few ages. And there are a great many more evil lords, giant spiders, winged eagles, and magical rings then you'll find in any Bible.