5 ms·

Not in a computer UI. It's depressing that audio software still widely subjects users to this skeuomorphic failure, trying to do everything with on-screen "kno

Not in a computer UI. It's depressing that audio software still widely subjects users to this skeuomorphic failure, trying to do everything with on-screen "knobs." Ugh.

prmoustache 2y ago
Totally agree. But I guess most audio software expect you to map those rotary potentiometers to actual midi controller with infinite rotary encoder and the UI serves as a way to see the status. Having said that you can totally map a physical rotary encoder to a linear one in the software so this is not a good excuse.
scott01 2y ago
Why do you think on-screen knobs is a failure? I personally find them very convenient for the purpose.
- frabert 2y ago
  As long as they support dragging up and down as a way to make them rotate
- grujicd 2y ago
  If it's operated by a mouse you're not sure where to click and hold, and how it will react when you move mouse in which direction. I assume you're using it a lot and then it's intuitive. For novice it's not. If I click on bottom part will it operate in another direction compared with clicking on top part? Or what about if I click on left or right edge? Can I also move mouse up-down and left-right or is only one direction allowed? Is mouse-up turning knob up or down? Are these rules same in all software or knob behaves slightly different everywhere? I have no idea for any of that except if I try and see. And since I rarely use them it's always a source for frustration. Especially compared to linear slider which is impossible to misunderstand and you can't operate in it wrong way.
  - rzzzt 2y ago
    The scroll wheel usually works for these as well.
    - DidYaWipe 2y ago
      It's a great use for scroll wheel.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    > Are these rules same in all software or knob behaves slightly different everywhere? They're different everywhere. My own opinion is that on-screen knobs for audio-type work can be fine as long as one can grab any part of the knob with the mouse and adjust it by moving the mouse up and down (er...well, physically forward and back). But things are not always this way so it seems that opinions vary.
  - scott01 2y ago
    Yeah, I see how it can be confusing for novices. But learning curve aside, there is something other than just looks that kept this UI pattern alive all these decades. How I see it [1], absolute values don't matter audio software, except when working with loudness compliance or some very technical things. What's important is how things sound, and it's generally a bad practice relying on UI metering to dial in sound in most cases. The typical audio work involves fine tuning parameters until things feel right. In UX terms, relative parameter tuning is the most common kind of interaction, and sliders absolutely suck balls at it, in my humble opinion. Linear sliders actually have more inconsistencies across implementation than knobs, that have converged to more or less the same pattern. E.g. some sliders reset value if you click in the middle of it, at which point all prior tuning is lost - this is super annoying and I hate it. Others operate in relative mode and they're similarly intuitive in regards to which direction they should operate depending on slider orientation (should horizontal slider change its value with up-down movement? should interaction range extend beyond slider length?). Also, such sliders are identical to knobs, essentially, but take more screen space. So, in a a nutshell, knobs are superior for fine tuning, which is 90% of all audio software interactions. 1. I'm not a professional, but I have clocked in thousands of hours into DAWs and other related software over the years as a hobby, also I played on a few local gigs and made some simple audio software.
dist-epoch 2y ago
As someone which designed such audio UIs with knobs, it's not because skeuomorphic was the target, it's because there is no better way to fit 50 controls in a small space while being able to see them all at the same time.
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  There's plenty of UI that presents drop-down (or pop-up) sliders. I will say, though, that a circle whose perimeter is partially filled in is a space-efficient way to depict the current value vs. the total range available.
- scott01 2y ago
  Yeah, I've seen this resentment about audio UI a lot here on HN, some of them sound more ignorant than others, but I'm yet to hear a convincing argument against knobs. People should probably check out FabFilter products, best UI in pro audio :)
gsck 2y ago
Gets even better with a touch screen and trying to rotate the virtual knobs. It just doesnt work. Piece of software I use frequently has most of the important programming and setup done through touch screen and relatively little through its command line which prior version used more off, the touch screen rotary encoders are just confusing and I can never seem to get it to the right value

Not in a computer UI. It's depressing that audio software still widely subjects users to this skeuomorphic failure, trying to do everything with on-screen "knobs." Ugh.

prmoustache 2y ago

Totally agree. But I guess most audio software expect you to map those rotary potentiometers to actual midi controller with infinite rotary encoder and the UI serves as a way to see the status. Having said that you can totally map a physical rotary encoder to a linear one in the software so this is not a good excuse.

scott01 2y ago

Why do you think on-screen knobs is a failure? I personally find them very convenient for the purpose.

frabert 2y ago
As long as they support dragging up and down as a way to make them rotate
grujicd 2y ago
If it's operated by a mouse you're not sure where to click and hold, and how it will react when you move mouse in which direction. I assume you're using it a lot and then it's intuitive. For novice it's not. If I click on bottom part will it operate in another direction compared with clicking on top part? Or what about if I click on left or right edge? Can I also move mouse up-down and left-right or is only one direction allowed? Is mouse-up turning knob up or down? Are these rules same in all software or knob behaves slightly different everywhere? I have no idea for any of that except if I try and see. And since I rarely use them it's always a source for frustration. Especially compared to linear slider which is impossible to misunderstand and you can't operate in it wrong way.
- rzzzt 2y ago
  The scroll wheel usually works for these as well.
  - DidYaWipe 2y ago
    It's a great use for scroll wheel.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  > Are these rules same in all software or knob behaves slightly different everywhere? They're different everywhere. My own opinion is that on-screen knobs for audio-type work can be fine as long as one can grab any part of the knob with the mouse and adjust it by moving the mouse up and down (er...well, physically forward and back). But things are not always this way so it seems that opinions vary.
- scott01 2y ago
  Yeah, I see how it can be confusing for novices. But learning curve aside, there is something other than just looks that kept this UI pattern alive all these decades. How I see it [1], absolute values don't matter audio software, except when working with loudness compliance or some very technical things. What's important is how things sound, and it's generally a bad practice relying on UI metering to dial in sound in most cases. The typical audio work involves fine tuning parameters until things feel right. In UX terms, relative parameter tuning is the most common kind of interaction, and sliders absolutely suck balls at it, in my humble opinion. Linear sliders actually have more inconsistencies across implementation than knobs, that have converged to more or less the same pattern. E.g. some sliders reset value if you click in the middle of it, at which point all prior tuning is lost - this is super annoying and I hate it. Others operate in relative mode and they're similarly intuitive in regards to which direction they should operate depending on slider orientation (should horizontal slider change its value with up-down movement? should interaction range extend beyond slider length?). Also, such sliders are identical to knobs, essentially, but take more screen space. So, in a a nutshell, knobs are superior for fine tuning, which is 90% of all audio software interactions. 1. I'm not a professional, but I have clocked in thousands of hours into DAWs and other related software over the years as a hobby, also I played on a few local gigs and made some simple audio software.

dist-epoch 2y ago

As someone which designed such audio UIs with knobs, it's not because skeuomorphic was the target, it's because there is no better way to fit 50 controls in a small space while being able to see them all at the same time.

DidYaWipe 2y ago
There's plenty of UI that presents drop-down (or pop-up) sliders. I will say, though, that a circle whose perimeter is partially filled in is a space-efficient way to depict the current value vs. the total range available.
scott01 2y ago
Yeah, I've seen this resentment about audio UI a lot here on HN, some of them sound more ignorant than others, but I'm yet to hear a convincing argument against knobs. People should probably check out FabFilter products, best UI in pro audio :)

gsck 2y ago

Gets even better with a touch screen and trying to rotate the virtual knobs. It just doesnt work. Piece of software I use frequently has most of the important programming and setup done through touch screen and relatively little through its command line which prior version used more off, the touch screen rotary encoders are just confusing and I can never seem to get it to the right value