6 ms·

Are rotary mixers better?

32 points by daledavies 2y ago

Animats 2y ago
What, no discussion of knob size, knurl, and operating torque? At this point it's mostly a user interface problem.
- lowdownbutter 2y ago
  Hello to other UK readers having a little chuckle to themselves.
  - xanderlewis 2y ago
    Hello, and thank you.
dspig 2y ago
Any headline with a question... Of course it depends on what you want to do and what you are used to. Technically, regardless of the rest of the product design there are high quality potentiometers available both as linear faders or rotary knobs. I guess dirt is more likely to get into a linear fader and make it scratchy - especially in a club environment.
letier 2y ago
I actually have a Taula 2 and a Xone 92 at home. I prefer the Taula 2, due to the simplicity and the fact that it has an isolator. The Xone 92 has a four band IQ and a filter, which I like a lot, but I have the impression that all the bells and whistles take a toll on the quality. At least in a home listening setup. Anyways, it’s not the knobs that make the sound…
- comprev 2y ago
  Xones are more like specialist precision tools that can be tweaked to a fine degree. Pioneers have many options to quickly bail out of a train wreck mix!
blablablerg 2y ago
You can't do (or it is much more involved) to do cuts with rotary knobs. So they serve only the DJ who does slow mixes, while with faders you can do both.
- te_chris 2y ago
  Can’t by design. It’s a different process. You can’t get the same smooth transitions as easily with the light faders on pioneer djms (the standard).
  - angled 2y ago
    Is there anything that compares to their absolute dominance? Every one is using their CDJs these days. Occasionally people still break out the steel wheels but Pioneer seem to have completely captured the market.
    - TomWhitwell 2y ago
      Technics SL-1200/1210 mk2 had a similar dominance for maybe a couple of decades, I think
    - comprev 2y ago
      Allen & Heath Xone 96 (or previous 92 model) mixers are very popular in the techno world. Pioneer DJMs have dozens of FX combinations to aid with fast/fancy transitions, whereas techno/trance (and similar) genres that rely on long smooth blends like the extra EQ channel and filters. I don't know any hip-hop DJs that use Xones? The Xones are also analogue vs digital Pioneer mixers which also plays a part in audio quality, especially if the source is analogue (vinyl, rack modules, etc). I'm happy with my Pioneer DJM-750mk2... but also happy to exchange a kidney for Xone:96 :-)
      - angled 2y ago
        HÖR use A&H mixers when people play vinyl on their YouTube channel. It’s very noticeable, especially for the proggy stuff!
jeffreygoesto 2y ago
Oh. I first thought it would be about blenders and thought "what other principles would be there?"
- prmoustache 2y ago
  You are not the only one.
- grujicd 2y ago
  Even when started reading I still didn't know what it was about. When DJs were mentioned I thought it was something related to turntables, as they are the rotary thing? Vinyl was mentioned in few places so it must be it? Then audiophiles were mentioned which is super strange since audiophiles don't use mixers at all. You're not mixing anything when you listen to music. Turned out it's just about rotary vs linear potentiometers. Or I misunderstood everything.
- WJW 2y ago
  You could have at least three types of linear mixers: - One where some type of spoon goes back and forth. This would probably just be worse than a rotary mixer though. - One where the entire "basin" oscillates back and forth like a seesaw, like the machines they have at the blood bank to make sure the blood mixes well with the anticoagulant in the bag(s). - One where the basin is airtight and vibrated up and down vigorously. I could see this work quite well for dry-ish mixtures of different particles, like if you have flour and sugar together in a container and want them mixed.
  - echoangle 2y ago
    I think the third point (vibrating a container to mix different dry particles) is actually the worst way to do it. If the particles have different sizes (or densities technically, I think), they will separate when vibrated, not mix together. If you ever tried to mix Cereals by shaking, you know what I mean. The proper technique is turning over the container continuously to mix the different layers, like in a cement mixer.
    - 2y ago
jonesjohnson 2y ago
The title is a bit misleading IMHO. It's more like analog vs digital. After all, from an electrical point of view they're usually just potentiometers and you can build them either as rotary or as linear potentiometers, but it's just a wiper on a resistive conductive track... (of course there are exceptions that work differently and use hall effect or optical sensors). The article only talks about the actual circuit that is behind that potentiometer. Having built some MIDI controllers myself in the past, I noticed that rotary potentiometers allow you to better "decouple" arm/shoulder movements from hand/finger movements. I.e. when you're standing and and holding that knob, It's easier to make precise adjustments when there's a rotary knob you can "hold on to" and slowly twist your fingers, whereas with a linear potentiometer I usually have to keep a finger on the surface next to the knob to "compensate" for involuntary movements coming from my body and arm...
- Moru 2y ago
  Yes, this is the same for controls in a car. Whoever thought a touch display was the way to go? Our old car had twisty-nobs that you could feel direction already on the grip. No need to look on the symbols what they adjusted. Our "modern" car has still twisty-nobs (we made extra sure of that) but you can't feel the direction because they are perfectly round with a tiny tiny nob for direction. Why do I get the impression development goes backwards?
  - exitb 2y ago
    > Whoever thought a touch display was the way to go? A lot of people talk about as it was primarily a design decision, but I suspect touch screen controls are the cheapest one out there right now.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      Especially when sisterly countries with sisterly regulations are taken into account.
    - formerly_proven 2y ago
      The hardware is much cheaper, but it is also way cheaper to engineer, and because a touchscreen is a very one-dimensional interface, many questions don't even need to be asked. There's no texture, shape or feedback in a touchscreen, for example.
DidYaWipe 2y ago
Not in a computer UI. It's depressing that audio software still widely subjects users to this skeuomorphic failure, trying to do everything with on-screen "knobs." Ugh.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Totally agree. But I guess most audio software expect you to map those rotary potentiometers to actual midi controller with infinite rotary encoder and the UI serves as a way to see the status. Having said that you can totally map a physical rotary encoder to a linear one in the software so this is not a good excuse.
- scott01 2y ago
  Why do you think on-screen knobs is a failure? I personally find them very convenient for the purpose.
  - frabert 2y ago
    As long as they support dragging up and down as a way to make them rotate
  - grujicd 2y ago
    If it's operated by a mouse you're not sure where to click and hold, and how it will react when you move mouse in which direction. I assume you're using it a lot and then it's intuitive. For novice it's not. If I click on bottom part will it operate in another direction compared with clicking on top part? Or what about if I click on left or right edge? Can I also move mouse up-down and left-right or is only one direction allowed? Is mouse-up turning knob up or down? Are these rules same in all software or knob behaves slightly different everywhere? I have no idea for any of that except if I try and see. And since I rarely use them it's always a source for frustration. Especially compared to linear slider which is impossible to misunderstand and you can't operate in it wrong way.
    - rzzzt 2y ago
      The scroll wheel usually works for these as well.
intsunny 2y ago
How an entire article about rotary mixers fails to mention Rane or their legendary MP2016 mixer is wild. It became one of the most commonly available rotary mixers, was the house mixer for many NYC clubs, and one of the mixers commonly found on tech riders of DJs who were the last to transition to CDJs. Random bit of trivia: if you see old school photos or videos of rotary mixers in American clubs, sometimes it wasn't actually the Rane MP2016, but the Phazon SDX 3700: https://www.integralsound.com/sdx-3700-mixer https://www.integralsound.com/sdx-3700-mixer It was the house mixer for Tunnel/Limelight.
i_am_proteus 2y ago
Seems like ad copy for the recently-released Alpha Theta Euphonia.
- TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
  Seems like ad copy for classic Veblen pricing, with rotaries being sold as a status symbol. They cost more than most studio mixers with far more channels and features. The margins on these things must be insane - probably 5-10X between production cost (including R&D) and end-user price.
NikkiA 2y ago
Linear (travel, not resistance) pots are easier to clean, so no.

32 points by daledavies 2y ago

Animats 2y ago

What, no discussion of knob size, knurl, and operating torque? At this point it's mostly a user interface problem.

lowdownbutter 2y ago
Hello to other UK readers having a little chuckle to themselves.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  Hello, and thank you.

dspig 2y ago

Any headline with a question... Of course it depends on what you want to do and what you are used to. Technically, regardless of the rest of the product design there are high quality potentiometers available both as linear faders or rotary knobs. I guess dirt is more likely to get into a linear fader and make it scratchy - especially in a club environment.

letier 2y ago

I actually have a Taula 2 and a Xone 92 at home. I prefer the Taula 2, due to the simplicity and the fact that it has an isolator. The Xone 92 has a four band IQ and a filter, which I like a lot, but I have the impression that all the bells and whistles take a toll on the quality. At least in a home listening setup. Anyways, it’s not the knobs that make the sound…

comprev 2y ago
Xones are more like specialist precision tools that can be tweaked to a fine degree. Pioneers have many options to quickly bail out of a train wreck mix!

blablablerg 2y ago

You can't do (or it is much more involved) to do cuts with rotary knobs. So they serve only the DJ who does slow mixes, while with faders you can do both.

te_chris 2y ago
Can’t by design. It’s a different process. You can’t get the same smooth transitions as easily with the light faders on pioneer djms (the standard).
- angled 2y ago
  Is there anything that compares to their absolute dominance? Every one is using their CDJs these days. Occasionally people still break out the steel wheels but Pioneer seem to have completely captured the market.
  - TomWhitwell 2y ago
    Technics SL-1200/1210 mk2 had a similar dominance for maybe a couple of decades, I think
  - comprev 2y ago
    Allen & Heath Xone 96 (or previous 92 model) mixers are very popular in the techno world. Pioneer DJMs have dozens of FX combinations to aid with fast/fancy transitions, whereas techno/trance (and similar) genres that rely on long smooth blends like the extra EQ channel and filters. I don't know any hip-hop DJs that use Xones? The Xones are also analogue vs digital Pioneer mixers which also plays a part in audio quality, especially if the source is analogue (vinyl, rack modules, etc). I'm happy with my Pioneer DJM-750mk2... but also happy to exchange a kidney for Xone:96 :-)
    - angled 2y ago
      HÖR use A&H mixers when people play vinyl on their YouTube channel. It’s very noticeable, especially for the proggy stuff!

jeffreygoesto 2y ago

Oh. I first thought it would be about blenders and thought "what other principles would be there?"

prmoustache 2y ago
You are not the only one.
grujicd 2y ago
Even when started reading I still didn't know what it was about. When DJs were mentioned I thought it was something related to turntables, as they are the rotary thing? Vinyl was mentioned in few places so it must be it? Then audiophiles were mentioned which is super strange since audiophiles don't use mixers at all. You're not mixing anything when you listen to music. Turned out it's just about rotary vs linear potentiometers. Or I misunderstood everything.
WJW 2y ago
You could have at least three types of linear mixers: - One where some type of spoon goes back and forth. This would probably just be worse than a rotary mixer though. - One where the entire "basin" oscillates back and forth like a seesaw, like the machines they have at the blood bank to make sure the blood mixes well with the anticoagulant in the bag(s). - One where the basin is airtight and vibrated up and down vigorously. I could see this work quite well for dry-ish mixtures of different particles, like if you have flour and sugar together in a container and want them mixed.
- echoangle 2y ago
  I think the third point (vibrating a container to mix different dry particles) is actually the worst way to do it. If the particles have different sizes (or densities technically, I think), they will separate when vibrated, not mix together. If you ever tried to mix Cereals by shaking, you know what I mean. The proper technique is turning over the container continuously to mix the different layers, like in a cement mixer.
  - 2y ago

jonesjohnson 2y ago

The title is a bit misleading IMHO. It's more like analog vs digital. After all, from an electrical point of view they're usually just potentiometers and you can build them either as rotary or as linear potentiometers, but it's just a wiper on a resistive conductive track... (of course there are exceptions that work differently and use hall effect or optical sensors). The article only talks about the actual circuit that is behind that potentiometer. Having built some MIDI controllers myself in the past, I noticed that rotary potentiometers allow you to better "decouple" arm/shoulder movements from hand/finger movements. I.e. when you're standing and and holding that knob, It's easier to make precise adjustments when there's a rotary knob you can "hold on to" and slowly twist your fingers, whereas with a linear potentiometer I usually have to keep a finger on the surface next to the knob to "compensate" for involuntary movements coming from my body and arm...

Moru 2y ago
Yes, this is the same for controls in a car. Whoever thought a touch display was the way to go? Our old car had twisty-nobs that you could feel direction already on the grip. No need to look on the symbols what they adjusted. Our "modern" car has still twisty-nobs (we made extra sure of that) but you can't feel the direction because they are perfectly round with a tiny tiny nob for direction. Why do I get the impression development goes backwards?
- exitb 2y ago
  > Whoever thought a touch display was the way to go? A lot of people talk about as it was primarily a design decision, but I suspect touch screen controls are the cheapest one out there right now.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Especially when sisterly countries with sisterly regulations are taken into account.
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    The hardware is much cheaper, but it is also way cheaper to engineer, and because a touchscreen is a very one-dimensional interface, many questions don't even need to be asked. There's no texture, shape or feedback in a touchscreen, for example.

DidYaWipe 2y ago

Not in a computer UI. It's depressing that audio software still widely subjects users to this skeuomorphic failure, trying to do everything with on-screen "knobs." Ugh.

prmoustache 2y ago
Totally agree. But I guess most audio software expect you to map those rotary potentiometers to actual midi controller with infinite rotary encoder and the UI serves as a way to see the status. Having said that you can totally map a physical rotary encoder to a linear one in the software so this is not a good excuse.
scott01 2y ago
Why do you think on-screen knobs is a failure? I personally find them very convenient for the purpose.
- frabert 2y ago
  As long as they support dragging up and down as a way to make them rotate
- grujicd 2y ago
  If it's operated by a mouse you're not sure where to click and hold, and how it will react when you move mouse in which direction. I assume you're using it a lot and then it's intuitive. For novice it's not. If I click on bottom part will it operate in another direction compared with clicking on top part? Or what about if I click on left or right edge? Can I also move mouse up-down and left-right or is only one direction allowed? Is mouse-up turning knob up or down? Are these rules same in all software or knob behaves slightly different everywhere? I have no idea for any of that except if I try and see. And since I rarely use them it's always a source for frustration. Especially compared to linear slider which is impossible to misunderstand and you can't operate in it wrong way.
  - rzzzt 2y ago
    The scroll wheel usually works for these as well.

intsunny 2y ago

How an entire article about rotary mixers fails to mention Rane or their legendary MP2016 mixer is wild. It became one of the most commonly available rotary mixers, was the house mixer for many NYC clubs, and one of the mixers commonly found on tech riders of DJs who were the last to transition to CDJs. Random bit of trivia: if you see old school photos or videos of rotary mixers in American clubs, sometimes it wasn't actually the Rane MP2016, but the Phazon SDX 3700: https://www.integralsound.com/sdx-3700-mixer https://www.integralsound.com/sdx-3700-mixer It was the house mixer for Tunnel/Limelight.

i_am_proteus 2y ago

Seems like ad copy for the recently-released Alpha Theta Euphonia.

TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
Seems like ad copy for classic Veblen pricing, with rotaries being sold as a status symbol. They cost more than most studio mixers with far more channels and features. The margins on these things must be insane - probably 5-10X between production cost (including R&D) and end-user price.

NikkiA 2y ago

Linear (travel, not resistance) pots are easier to clean, so no.