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People keep assuming China is only successful because they're dumping, and miss the elephant in the room: China went all-in on EVs over a decade ago, while we w

People keep assuming China is only successful because they're dumping, and miss the elephant in the room: China went all-in on EVs over a decade ago, while we were fucking about with hybrids and maybe-just-stick-with-ICE. They have world-class batteries and insatiable domestic demand and it's been that way since before Tesla, what if China is undercutting us because their cars are just better? In that case our tarrifs are just protectionism, is what.

cvalka 2y ago
100℅
Sabinus 2y ago
>They have world-class batteries and insatiable domestic demand Excellent, then they won't have an issue with losing their export markets to tariffs, because they can just sell their EVs to the "insatiable demand" of the local consumers. >what if China is undercutting us because their cars are just better Price/performance they ARE better, China can produce cheaper because of their years of (government aided) investments and economies of scale. Of course, we aren't obligated to buy from belligerent states engaging in strategic mercantilism producing the goods of the future. We aren't obligated to prop up the Chinese export-oriented economic model in pursuit of one generation of cheap EV cars.
- sabbaticaldev 2y ago
  > excellent, then they won't have an issue with losing their export markets to tariffs, because they can just sell their EVs to the "insatiable demand" of the local consumers. that’s what happened but the point in discussion here is why Tesla does not have competition in the US and the answer is simple
  - Sabinus 2y ago
    The answer above was apparently 'protectionism'. If we're only putting tariffs on EV cars from one country, then how is protectionism the simple answer?
- redserk 2y ago
  Boy do I have news for you if you think China is the only country that pours money into domestic R&D for strategic commercial development…
  - Sabinus 2y ago
    Indeed, plenty of countries engage in a bit of strategic development. Plenty of countries aren't belligerent communists though. Communism brings the state direction of industry to another level and with Xi as the new leader for life means they'll be extra implacable.
    - Qwertious 2y ago
      They're communists but they're capitalisting better than the actual capitalists, and you're advocating for out-communisting the communists. Protectionism doesn't work, because you can block them from selling in your country's market, but you can't block them from selling to every other country in the planet. Meanwhile, tarrifing their cars will be as effective in helping domestic industry drop prices as it was for Harley Davidson since the 1970s (who received "temporary" protectionism). This isn't a result of some evil communist plot, China just had their shit together 10-20 years ago and are reaping the rewards.
caekislove 2y ago
Protectionism built Japan, Korea and China's economies. Protectionism is good, actually.
- Qwertious 2y ago
  Protectionism let Harley Davidson make their motorbikes cheap enough to compete on the world stage in the 1970s. Except, they never bothered because they didn't need to compete - protectionism kept them nice and profitable, regardless of what they did. Protectionism can be done well, but blindly applying it is dangerous and stupid.

cvalka 2y ago

100℅

Sabinus 2y ago

>They have world-class batteries and insatiable domestic demand Excellent, then they won't have an issue with losing their export markets to tariffs, because they can just sell their EVs to the "insatiable demand" of the local consumers. >what if China is undercutting us because their cars are just better Price/performance they ARE better, China can produce cheaper because of their years of (government aided) investments and economies of scale. Of course, we aren't obligated to buy from belligerent states engaging in strategic mercantilism producing the goods of the future. We aren't obligated to prop up the Chinese export-oriented economic model in pursuit of one generation of cheap EV cars.

sabbaticaldev 2y ago
> excellent, then they won't have an issue with losing their export markets to tariffs, because they can just sell their EVs to the "insatiable demand" of the local consumers. that’s what happened but the point in discussion here is why Tesla does not have competition in the US and the answer is simple
- Sabinus 2y ago
  The answer above was apparently 'protectionism'. If we're only putting tariffs on EV cars from one country, then how is protectionism the simple answer?
redserk 2y ago
Boy do I have news for you if you think China is the only country that pours money into domestic R&D for strategic commercial development…
- Sabinus 2y ago
  Indeed, plenty of countries engage in a bit of strategic development. Plenty of countries aren't belligerent communists though. Communism brings the state direction of industry to another level and with Xi as the new leader for life means they'll be extra implacable.
  - Qwertious 2y ago
    They're communists but they're capitalisting better than the actual capitalists, and you're advocating for out-communisting the communists. Protectionism doesn't work, because you can block them from selling in your country's market, but you can't block them from selling to every other country in the planet. Meanwhile, tarrifing their cars will be as effective in helping domestic industry drop prices as it was for Harley Davidson since the 1970s (who received "temporary" protectionism). This isn't a result of some evil communist plot, China just had their shit together 10-20 years ago and are reaping the rewards.

caekislove 2y ago

Protectionism built Japan, Korea and China's economies. Protectionism is good, actually.

Qwertious 2y ago
Protectionism let Harley Davidson make their motorbikes cheap enough to compete on the world stage in the 1970s. Except, they never bothered because they didn't need to compete - protectionism kept them nice and profitable, regardless of what they did. Protectionism can be done well, but blindly applying it is dangerous and stupid.