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Go read Cadillac Desert: It's precisely about all the efforts, right between fantasy and reality, that have put is in the hole we are today. From straight out w

Go read Cadillac Desert: It's precisely about all the efforts, right between fantasy and reality, that have put is in the hole we are today. From straight out wishful thinking to really expensive investments that haven't ever come remotely close to paying for themselves. There's entire sections covering how we have spend very large amounts of money doing water works that just go to feed very low productivity farms. We dreamed, built, and just wasted money. It's true that as solar gets cheaper, more parts of the world become livable. Byt why should we occupy more of the US with very expensive, low productivity suburbs? Is there no opportunity costs in piling more people into Phoenix? But no, it's just more poetic to just spend billions upon billions to make the property of people living in a desert more valuable.

mikepurvis 2y ago
Doubling up on the CD recommendation; I saw it mentioned on HN years ago and read it and it completely changed the way I see water issues in the US, in particular the insight about how “wasted” water has a completely different meaning on the east coast vs the west. To someone who has lived most of my life in Ontario, it’s an eye opener recognizing that drinkable water is insanely plentiful here relative to most of the rest of the world.
photonthug 2y ago
> property value of people living in a desert more valuable People living in the desert (outside of phoenix and Vegas anyway) are probably thinking there is much more value in not being in the suburbs honestly, and I seriously doubt they want to trade this for more neighbors. They still want infrastructure investment though, because there is little appeal in their taxes funding more development in urban centers that are already rich or repairing coastal areas after the next hurricane, etc. Forward looking investments in rural areas is a great way to boost the economy generally, to curb the scary rise of populist madness, and start to fix one of the major sources of division and angst in the USA and other places. If desalination makes no sense, how about a space elevator, hyper tunnel, or you know, decent cheap old school passenger rail options? > We dreamed, built, and just wasted money. A bit more nuance than that. First, there are reasonable arguments that desert living is/can be more energy efficient than heating the great frozen north, even prior to cheap solar. Whether things happen or we give up comes down to who is politically important more often than what is physically or economically easy. And one thing that is often forgotten about such efforts is that even projects that fail can be a net positive.. that is why we don’t cancel the space program after the first rocket crashes.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  Why do you think your arguments/assertions/beliefs/opinions ought to carry greater weight than the parent’s? Is there some compelling analysis, theoretical proof, etc…?
  - photonthug 2y ago
    You’re confused about the direction for the burden of proof here. I want infrastructure investment, and already mentioned that it really doesn’t matter if it’s desalination specifically. This creates jobs and general prosperity while it increases possibilities and capabilities historically, and has essentially already created everything you know and love about modern life. If your position is that it’s better to do absolutely nothing, then it’s on you to show that railroads, dams, and interstates are useless and that the New Deal, the Hoover dam, the Ccc, etc were a net negative for society. Maybe you know of countries that were destroyed by good employment numbers or infrastructure investment? Eagerly awaiting your own proofs and analysis.
    - MichaelZuo 2y ago
      You responded to the parent initially… I am not that user, so I didn’t make any such claims? Are you confusing me with the other user?
      - photonthug 2y ago
        [flagged]
        MichaelZuo 2y ago
        > No need to mortgage the Ferris wheel. Quadruplicity drinks procrastination whenever colorless green ideas sleep furiously Huh? Is this an AI response?
    - tolciho 2y ago
      Several no longer existing civilizations built out infrastructure that proved too complicated to maintain. So they had, for some time, "good employment numbers or infrastructure investment". Then they "were destroyed", or more often faded away as folks adapted, migrated, or died. Details can be scarce, as your stone carving artisans might simply stop making records. If there are any records. Some of these fallen civilizations had water-works that gave short term benefits, but eventually failed: the system became too complicated or too expensive to maintain, soil salinity grew, earthquakes cut the qanats, maybe there was a run of corrupt or incompetent leaders, wars and political unrest can complicate maintenance, or economic and trade changes can make a once profitable area irrelevant, and it's a pity about those changing rainfall patterns. "Strong Towns" does exist as something of an antidote to mindless "it doesn't matter" infrastructure spending, and has pointed out various problems of popping up yet more suburbs that lack the tax revenue for maintenance. Or perhaps civilizations, like flowers, are all about short term gain before they fade away?
mikhailfranco 2y ago
Cadillac Dessert - 1997 TV series based on the book (4hr) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2BSGQt2DU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2BSGQt2DU

mikepurvis 2y ago

Doubling up on the CD recommendation; I saw it mentioned on HN years ago and read it and it completely changed the way I see water issues in the US, in particular the insight about how “wasted” water has a completely different meaning on the east coast vs the west. To someone who has lived most of my life in Ontario, it’s an eye opener recognizing that drinkable water is insanely plentiful here relative to most of the rest of the world.

photonthug 2y ago

> property value of people living in a desert more valuable People living in the desert (outside of phoenix and Vegas anyway) are probably thinking there is much more value in not being in the suburbs honestly, and I seriously doubt they want to trade this for more neighbors. They still want infrastructure investment though, because there is little appeal in their taxes funding more development in urban centers that are already rich or repairing coastal areas after the next hurricane, etc. Forward looking investments in rural areas is a great way to boost the economy generally, to curb the scary rise of populist madness, and start to fix one of the major sources of division and angst in the USA and other places. If desalination makes no sense, how about a space elevator, hyper tunnel, or you know, decent cheap old school passenger rail options? > We dreamed, built, and just wasted money. A bit more nuance than that. First, there are reasonable arguments that desert living is/can be more energy efficient than heating the great frozen north, even prior to cheap solar. Whether things happen or we give up comes down to who is politically important more often than what is physically or economically easy. And one thing that is often forgotten about such efforts is that even projects that fail can be a net positive.. that is why we don’t cancel the space program after the first rocket crashes.

MichaelZuo 2y ago
Why do you think your arguments/assertions/beliefs/opinions ought to carry greater weight than the parent’s? Is there some compelling analysis, theoretical proof, etc…?
- photonthug 2y ago
  You’re confused about the direction for the burden of proof here. I want infrastructure investment, and already mentioned that it really doesn’t matter if it’s desalination specifically. This creates jobs and general prosperity while it increases possibilities and capabilities historically, and has essentially already created everything you know and love about modern life. If your position is that it’s better to do absolutely nothing, then it’s on you to show that railroads, dams, and interstates are useless and that the New Deal, the Hoover dam, the Ccc, etc were a net negative for society. Maybe you know of countries that were destroyed by good employment numbers or infrastructure investment? Eagerly awaiting your own proofs and analysis.
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    You responded to the parent initially… I am not that user, so I didn’t make any such claims? Are you confusing me with the other user?
    - photonthug 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - MichaelZuo 2y ago
        > No need to mortgage the Ferris wheel. Quadruplicity drinks procrastination whenever colorless green ideas sleep furiously Huh? Is this an AI response?
  - tolciho 2y ago
    Several no longer existing civilizations built out infrastructure that proved too complicated to maintain. So they had, for some time, "good employment numbers or infrastructure investment". Then they "were destroyed", or more often faded away as folks adapted, migrated, or died. Details can be scarce, as your stone carving artisans might simply stop making records. If there are any records. Some of these fallen civilizations had water-works that gave short term benefits, but eventually failed: the system became too complicated or too expensive to maintain, soil salinity grew, earthquakes cut the qanats, maybe there was a run of corrupt or incompetent leaders, wars and political unrest can complicate maintenance, or economic and trade changes can make a once profitable area irrelevant, and it's a pity about those changing rainfall patterns. "Strong Towns" does exist as something of an antidote to mindless "it doesn't matter" infrastructure spending, and has pointed out various problems of popping up yet more suburbs that lack the tax revenue for maintenance. Or perhaps civilizations, like flowers, are all about short term gain before they fade away?

mikhailfranco 2y ago

Cadillac Dessert - 1997 TV series based on the book (4hr) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2BSGQt2DU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2BSGQt2DU