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So kind of them to offer freedom, and sovereignty, both taken by themselves. What a moral high ground they have! Did they offer reparations too, for the ethnic

So kind of them to offer freedom, and sovereignty, both taken by themselves. What a moral high ground they have! Did they offer reparations too, for the ethnic cleansing in Jaffa, and Haifa, and numerous other villages and cities? I am sure they would even respawn the murdered Palestinian children.

invalidname 2y ago
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- CapricornNoble 2y ago
  > Most of the Palestinians who fled in 1948 did so because of Arab armies who urged them to move so they can kill the Jews more easily. That backfired. Those who stayed are Israeli citizens and always have been. Those who fled couldn't come back because the borders were sealed due to a war their leaders chose to start. You mention 1948....but what happened in 1946, and 1947? Aren't those years also relevant? Things like the bombing of the King David Hotel (by Zionist militias) and the Deir Yassin Massacre (same militias again), precede intervention by neighboring Arab states. Palestinians were already fleeing from murder, and they couldn't return to homes which had been demolished by the Zionist militias, and with the rubble mined to prevent people returning. Israeli historians have written extensively on this period. Benny Morris's book can be read on the Internet Archive or downloaded on VK ( https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 ). I don't have an electronic source for Ilan Pappe's book, but here is an article he wrote which seems like an abridged version: ( https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141_b.pdf https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141... ). Pappe's article covers Plan Dalet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
  - invalidname 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      In 1940s the Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. So you're using Amin al-Husseini as a stand-in for all Palestinians, which I suppose is about as cool as using Netanyahu as a stand-in for all Israelis. Or as the other commenter pointed out, when referring to the occasion when agents from Stern Gang met with Nazi officials to discuss the possibility of an anti-British alliance, we might as well just say simplify and say "the Jews" did so, collectively. But never mind that. Just tell us, please: what did Amin ask Hitler to do, specifically? Referencing the transcript we all have of their sole meeting in November 1941, of course.
      - invalidname 2y ago
        > So you're using Amin al-Husseini as a stand-in for all Palestinians Nope, not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can pick any historical point in time and show why things happened in a particular way. Palestinians bemoan that Israel exists and that Jews were "given" statehood (I quote given because there was a war and it was paid for with blood). But if you look at the history it's pretty clear why the UN felt Jews deserved a home in Israel. They were on the right side of history in this particular conflict and fought besides the allies. This is a repeating pattern for Palestinian leadership. Unwillingness to compromise and victim-hood, that doesn't work well for them. I'm not saying they're not victims or even not saying that Israel isn't to blame for a lot of their problems. I am saying that their leadership bares a LOT of that responsibility too, the choices they made brought them to this point and they continue to make similar choices which make matters worse. Right now it's obviously too late since the last big choice they had was in 2008 when they rejected a statehood deal. Hamas had a choice during that time of recognizing Israel and negotiating, but it's Hamas so it obviously wasn't much of a choice. I hope there will be another such fork in the road, I doubt they will get anything remotely as good as the 2008 offer. Knowing history I doubt Palestinian leadership will take it and again they will blame Israel.
    - defrost 2y ago
      > Sure. E.g. in the 1940s Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. Was that the same time the Jews went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the English? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) There's a lot of slop in playing skewed hot takes on history.

invalidname 2y ago

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CapricornNoble 2y ago
> Most of the Palestinians who fled in 1948 did so because of Arab armies who urged them to move so they can kill the Jews more easily. That backfired. Those who stayed are Israeli citizens and always have been. Those who fled couldn't come back because the borders were sealed due to a war their leaders chose to start. You mention 1948....but what happened in 1946, and 1947? Aren't those years also relevant? Things like the bombing of the King David Hotel (by Zionist militias) and the Deir Yassin Massacre (same militias again), precede intervention by neighboring Arab states. Palestinians were already fleeing from murder, and they couldn't return to homes which had been demolished by the Zionist militias, and with the rubble mined to prevent people returning. Israeli historians have written extensively on this period. Benny Morris's book can be read on the Internet Archive or downloaded on VK ( https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 ). I don't have an electronic source for Ilan Pappe's book, but here is an article he wrote which seems like an abridged version: ( https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141_b.pdf https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141... ). Pappe's article covers Plan Dalet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
- invalidname 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    In 1940s the Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. So you're using Amin al-Husseini as a stand-in for all Palestinians, which I suppose is about as cool as using Netanyahu as a stand-in for all Israelis. Or as the other commenter pointed out, when referring to the occasion when agents from Stern Gang met with Nazi officials to discuss the possibility of an anti-British alliance, we might as well just say simplify and say "the Jews" did so, collectively. But never mind that. Just tell us, please: what did Amin ask Hitler to do, specifically? Referencing the transcript we all have of their sole meeting in November 1941, of course.
    - invalidname 2y ago
      > So you're using Amin al-Husseini as a stand-in for all Palestinians Nope, not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can pick any historical point in time and show why things happened in a particular way. Palestinians bemoan that Israel exists and that Jews were "given" statehood (I quote given because there was a war and it was paid for with blood). But if you look at the history it's pretty clear why the UN felt Jews deserved a home in Israel. They were on the right side of history in this particular conflict and fought besides the allies. This is a repeating pattern for Palestinian leadership. Unwillingness to compromise and victim-hood, that doesn't work well for them. I'm not saying they're not victims or even not saying that Israel isn't to blame for a lot of their problems. I am saying that their leadership bares a LOT of that responsibility too, the choices they made brought them to this point and they continue to make similar choices which make matters worse. Right now it's obviously too late since the last big choice they had was in 2008 when they rejected a statehood deal. Hamas had a choice during that time of recognizing Israel and negotiating, but it's Hamas so it obviously wasn't much of a choice. I hope there will be another such fork in the road, I doubt they will get anything remotely as good as the 2008 offer. Knowing history I doubt Palestinian leadership will take it and again they will blame Israel.
  - defrost 2y ago
    > Sure. E.g. in the 1940s Palestinians went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the Jews. Was that the same time the Jews went to Hitler and asked him to take care of the English? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) There's a lot of slop in playing skewed hot takes on history.