4 ms·

> 5 is much too short, though. and "commercially available" is very exploitable. It's not too short for things that have stopped being sold. If a book or video

> 5 is much too short, though. and "commercially available" is very exploitable. It's not too short for things that have stopped being sold. If a book or video game has no more commercial value in selling, why not end its copyright? I'm not saying 5 years after something is published. I'm saying 5 years after it stops being sold by the publisher. If a publisher wants to "exploit" that by keeping everything in print, then great. We still keep the existing copyright limits. But I guarantee you most of the stuff no longer being sold, they don't care about because it's not profitable anymore. If it was profitable, they'd still be selling it.

jonhohle 2y ago
Video games are particularly egregious because even if an old game is currently sold under the same name, it often is not the same game: * it’s running via emulation or has been recompiled for a different architecture with noticeable changes from the original (control latency, graphical differences, fixed/new bugs) * content has been added or removed (often due to licensing) * an EULA has been added or modified * it’s not playable on the hardware where it was originally released This is unlike books and music, which rarely change, or movies where it happens but is certainly not common. Video games are different, though. The Genesis version of Sonic 3 has a different soundtrack than all others and hasn’t been available since 1997. Symphony of the Night had the most similar rerelease in 2006 on XBLA, but everything since has been a version with many big fixes and additions based on the PSP version. Final Fantasy VI has had many “enhanced” versions, but surprisingly the original ROM was available until the Wii U eShop shut down last year. Also aurprisingly, new old stock of the PS1 version could be bought from Square Enix up until a few years ago. There are countless other remasters or ports that replace the original which is then never sold again.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  None of that presents any kind of legal difficulty. If a game is recompiled under a new architecture, it's still the same graphics and text and levels and everything. It's not really any different from a new printing of a book in paperback instead of hardcover and in a different font. The copyright on those elements remains intact. If you're simply talking about access to previous versions for researchers and archivists, that's more of a question of archival practices than of copyright. Which is a very interesting conversation, but a totally separate one.
  - jonhohle 2y ago
    It may it matter to you, but it certainly matters to competitive, speed run, and enthusiast communities around different games. I mentioned Sonic 3 because it’s not the same music after the initial release. Depending on the version, Symphony of the Night is not the same levels or graphics. There are multiple versions of Revenge of Shinobi which replace various bosses for the Sega Genesis. Final Fantasy VI may or may not be the same code. Later versions may or may not use resources from earlier versions, sometimes a release is a completely new game with the same gameplay and aesthetic (this was especially true in 16-hit and earlier eras when arcade and home versions were complete reimplementations of the same game). They might have the same name, but at what point does the Ship of Theseus become a different thing?
    - kelnos 2y ago
      > They might have the same name, but at what point does the Ship of Theseus become a different thing? Who knows, doesn't really matter. Like with most things, the courts can determine on a case-by-case basis whether or not a particular thing currently on sale is similar enough to the old/original version of it such that the original thing should still hold copyright. Not really a big deal from a legal standpoint.
      - jonhohle 2y ago
        My original reply was to a post suggesting something go into the public domain so many years after it has stopped being sold. I was just trying to illustrate how quickly that becomes a tricky problem. I don’t think that concept is viable for other reasons, so hypothesizing is all we’ll ever have.
dragonmost 2y ago
How would you deal with digital versions now? Publishers will just leave all the PC versions on steam and call it a day. Those will never expire as long as the publisher remains in business.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Yeah, that's the other can of worms that I didn't go into. Even if a game gets delisted from steam, they can just whip up that digital copy "for sale" on their website or any other cheaper platform (since sales are No longer the priority, just keeping the copyright is).
- kelnos 2y ago
  As long as it's still for sale, and sales will actually get fulfilled, and there's a reasonably-widely available platform the game will still run on, that's fine. The point of the 5-year suggestion is to ensure that people continue to have access to these works. Forcing things into the public domain (after a 5-year not-for-sale period) is one way. Keeping things for sale so people can buy them is another.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
>It's not too short for things that have stopped being sold. If a book or video game has no more commercial value in selling, why not end its copyright? Well that's more for exploiting. They can stop making copies of say, Horizon Zero dawn that came out in 2017. And maybe they stop selling it in 2019 (in this theoretical) . Just when the 5 years are almost up, they start making another retail run of it, or the remaster in this case. Repeat and iterate until you get bored. > I guarantee you most of the stuff no longer being sold, they don't care about because it's not profitable anymore. If it was profitable, they'd still be selling it. I want to thank that, but companies still prefer to hoard IP's, if only to keep others from working with it. There are several IP's from now defunct companies that got picked up by non-gaming studios, who obviously have no intention of ever making a game. They just want a cut if anyone ever wants to try. Or to sue when fans try to do stuff with it. For 5 years in advance, it's not hard to keep a disc run or remaster in mind. Just look at Sony. For a longer term like 20 years they need to be more creative.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > I want to thank that, but companies still prefer to hoard IP's, if only to keep others from working with it. There are several IP's from now defunct companies that got picked up by non-gaming studios, who obviously have no intention of ever making a game. They just want a cut if anyone ever wants to try. Or to sue when fans try to do stuff with it. And this is exactly why the suggestion upthread is a good one. As a society, we shouldn't allow people to hoard IP and withhold it from the public.

jonhohle 2y ago

Video games are particularly egregious because even if an old game is currently sold under the same name, it often is not the same game: * it’s running via emulation or has been recompiled for a different architecture with noticeable changes from the original (control latency, graphical differences, fixed/new bugs) * content has been added or removed (often due to licensing) * an EULA has been added or modified * it’s not playable on the hardware where it was originally released This is unlike books and music, which rarely change, or movies where it happens but is certainly not common. Video games are different, though. The Genesis version of Sonic 3 has a different soundtrack than all others and hasn’t been available since 1997. Symphony of the Night had the most similar rerelease in 2006 on XBLA, but everything since has been a version with many big fixes and additions based on the PSP version. Final Fantasy VI has had many “enhanced” versions, but surprisingly the original ROM was available until the Wii U eShop shut down last year. Also aurprisingly, new old stock of the PS1 version could be bought from Square Enix up until a few years ago. There are countless other remasters or ports that replace the original which is then never sold again.

crazygringo 2y ago
None of that presents any kind of legal difficulty. If a game is recompiled under a new architecture, it's still the same graphics and text and levels and everything. It's not really any different from a new printing of a book in paperback instead of hardcover and in a different font. The copyright on those elements remains intact. If you're simply talking about access to previous versions for researchers and archivists, that's more of a question of archival practices than of copyright. Which is a very interesting conversation, but a totally separate one.
- jonhohle 2y ago
  It may it matter to you, but it certainly matters to competitive, speed run, and enthusiast communities around different games. I mentioned Sonic 3 because it’s not the same music after the initial release. Depending on the version, Symphony of the Night is not the same levels or graphics. There are multiple versions of Revenge of Shinobi which replace various bosses for the Sega Genesis. Final Fantasy VI may or may not be the same code. Later versions may or may not use resources from earlier versions, sometimes a release is a completely new game with the same gameplay and aesthetic (this was especially true in 16-hit and earlier eras when arcade and home versions were complete reimplementations of the same game). They might have the same name, but at what point does the Ship of Theseus become a different thing?
  - kelnos 2y ago
    > They might have the same name, but at what point does the Ship of Theseus become a different thing? Who knows, doesn't really matter. Like with most things, the courts can determine on a case-by-case basis whether or not a particular thing currently on sale is similar enough to the old/original version of it such that the original thing should still hold copyright. Not really a big deal from a legal standpoint.
    - jonhohle 2y ago
      My original reply was to a post suggesting something go into the public domain so many years after it has stopped being sold. I was just trying to illustrate how quickly that becomes a tricky problem. I don’t think that concept is viable for other reasons, so hypothesizing is all we’ll ever have.

dragonmost 2y ago

How would you deal with digital versions now? Publishers will just leave all the PC versions on steam and call it a day. Those will never expire as long as the publisher remains in business.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
Yeah, that's the other can of worms that I didn't go into. Even if a game gets delisted from steam, they can just whip up that digital copy "for sale" on their website or any other cheaper platform (since sales are No longer the priority, just keeping the copyright is).
kelnos 2y ago
As long as it's still for sale, and sales will actually get fulfilled, and there's a reasonably-widely available platform the game will still run on, that's fine. The point of the 5-year suggestion is to ensure that people continue to have access to these works. Forcing things into the public domain (after a 5-year not-for-sale period) is one way. Keeping things for sale so people can buy them is another.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

>It's not too short for things that have stopped being sold. If a book or video game has no more commercial value in selling, why not end its copyright? Well that's more for exploiting. They can stop making copies of say, Horizon Zero dawn that came out in 2017. And maybe they stop selling it in 2019 (in this theoretical) . Just when the 5 years are almost up, they start making another retail run of it, or the remaster in this case. Repeat and iterate until you get bored. > I guarantee you most of the stuff no longer being sold, they don't care about because it's not profitable anymore. If it was profitable, they'd still be selling it. I want to thank that, but companies still prefer to hoard IP's, if only to keep others from working with it. There are several IP's from now defunct companies that got picked up by non-gaming studios, who obviously have no intention of ever making a game. They just want a cut if anyone ever wants to try. Or to sue when fans try to do stuff with it. For 5 years in advance, it's not hard to keep a disc run or remaster in mind. Just look at Sony. For a longer term like 20 years they need to be more creative.

kelnos 2y ago
> I want to thank that, but companies still prefer to hoard IP's, if only to keep others from working with it. There are several IP's from now defunct companies that got picked up by non-gaming studios, who obviously have no intention of ever making a game. They just want a cut if anyone ever wants to try. Or to sue when fans try to do stuff with it. And this is exactly why the suggestion upthread is a good one. As a society, we shouldn't allow people to hoard IP and withhold it from the public.