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> it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server). this isn’t a “problem” that needs to be solved. you’re not “at t

by toofy 2y ago

> it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server). this isn’t a “problem” that needs to be solved. you’re not “at the will of the server” in a federated environment, its the actual literal opposite. if i don’t like the server operators or if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like. this is a good thing, not a “problem.” the ability to freely move and the freedom to associate is incredibly important. and for some weird reason people keep pretending like these things aren’t important if it’s online. its ridiculous. if i don’t want to spend my play time around eric, i should absolutely be able to move and play somewhere else without eric. that’s actual freedom. if you try to keep me in one place or force me to play with eric, you’re trapping me. no, the ability to pick and choose how, why, where, and with who i spend my free time is important, its not a “problem”. that’s agency, and i wish people would quit arguing against agency and calling it a problem.

lukan 2y ago
"if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like." So everytime you move, can you take your existing network and posts and messages with you, or do you have to start from scratch every time?
- ttepasse 2y ago
  You can take your existing network with you, Mastodon has Accounts redirects and follower migrations. Your own content not yet. While Mastodon-the-software has an export function, there is no import as yet. But that is a solvable problem. https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/ https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/
  - echoangle 2y ago
    Does the migration also work if the server I’m migrating from actively wants to prevent me from taking over my stuff? If they ban me from their server because they don’t like me, they aren’t going to set up a redirect for me, right? Is this a real thing that happens?
    - toofy 2y ago
      im not the person you responded to, but i think this worry is mostly just overblown. i dont think most people have this concern. i think some do, but not most. if its something you're super worried about, you could always do what ive seen some folks do and just like docs, photos, etc..., make a backup. just create a mirror federated account with same follows etc... its not really something i personally have a need for. to me, the worst that happens is i lose some conversations i had with some friends. i cant remember the last time i looked back at some random tweet i made 3 years ago or whatever...
      - hoidofyolen 2y ago
        the issue is that this is a little myopic when thinking about identity. Your instance server in ActivityPub holds your identity, so when you change servers by mirroring or whatever method, you're giving up your old identity and taking on a copy. That identity part is crucial because if you want to, for example, do OAuth with ActivityPub, your old server technically owns an identity of yours that's just as valid as your new one. It's better on atproto because your identity is always your own (with the caveat that it's currently managed by Bluesky's https://plc.directory https://plc.directory, but like they've said, they're working to move this outside the company). ActivityPub will never give you true account portability unless they do something like atproto and allow identity portability. Atproto allows this already. You can move your PDS (where your data is hosted, and the thing that controls access to OAuth) to a new one whenever you want.
- toofy 2y ago
  well my comment was specifically pointing out that giving someone agency is the opposite of “a problem.” i was pointing out that having options to spend your freetime how and where you like is the literal opposite of forcing you to “the will of a server” or whatever their statement was. to your comment, the ability to keep posts and such is going to vary by which system you’re using, for example: - twitter, absolutely not. they want to force you to spend your free time around whoever they say. and they absolutely want to make it difficult for you to have freedom to leave or the freedom to associate. in the before times there were sites you could use to move your contacts and follow the same people on Mastodon. elon hated the idea of people having freedom so he shut that down shortly after he took power. for this reason i recommend people start manually building their contacts on other sites now so the move will be easier once you’re ready. - threads, im not familiar enough with it yet to say for sure. i have a couple of accounts there but honestly, ill never use them, its zuckerberg… facebook… no thanks. been burned too many times by these people. - Mastodon, almost entirely yes. you can backup and download both your posts and your contacts. i dont worry too much about it, but if it’s something you’re super worried about just do like we all do with photos, docs, etc… keep a backup. i know some people keep a backup federated account mirroring follows, etc… for worst case scenarios. i occasionally download my follows and posts, but im not really too worried about it. - bluesky, yep. i love blue sky but for different reasons from Mastodon, i use them both all day long. just for different reasons. blue sky doesn’t at all have the same quality of community as Mastodon or even hn. it’s nice, but its not community focused. its more like twitter before eternal september took over. at the end of the day tho, i don’t have a lot of hope for it, the VC people will definitely figure out a way to ruin it. but to bring it back to my original comment: the important part is that we have the agency to utilize freedom of movement and association. it should creep you out when someone tries to convince you that having agency is a problem. having freedom to jump from place to place, server to server, community to community is a good thing and its crazy when these people keep attempting to convince us that jumping around is "a problem". when someone tries to force you to spend your playtime somewhere you don’t want to be, or when they try to convince you “no, you should want to be around eric especially when he’s a dickbag.” that should make your hair stand up with red flags. and that’s what these people have been trying to convince us for years—“noooo, why would you want to spend your free time somewhere else having fun? dont go enjoy yourself! you want to be here! no one here likes each other and everyone is screaming at each other! thats what you really want to do with your freetime!”

by toofy 2y ago

lukan 2y ago

"if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like." So everytime you move, can you take your existing network and posts and messages with you, or do you have to start from scratch every time?

ttepasse 2y ago
You can take your existing network with you, Mastodon has Accounts redirects and follower migrations. Your own content not yet. While Mastodon-the-software has an export function, there is no import as yet. But that is a solvable problem. https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/ https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/
- echoangle 2y ago
  Does the migration also work if the server I’m migrating from actively wants to prevent me from taking over my stuff? If they ban me from their server because they don’t like me, they aren’t going to set up a redirect for me, right? Is this a real thing that happens?
  - toofy 2y ago
    im not the person you responded to, but i think this worry is mostly just overblown. i dont think most people have this concern. i think some do, but not most. if its something you're super worried about, you could always do what ive seen some folks do and just like docs, photos, etc..., make a backup. just create a mirror federated account with same follows etc... its not really something i personally have a need for. to me, the worst that happens is i lose some conversations i had with some friends. i cant remember the last time i looked back at some random tweet i made 3 years ago or whatever...
    - hoidofyolen 2y ago
      the issue is that this is a little myopic when thinking about identity. Your instance server in ActivityPub holds your identity, so when you change servers by mirroring or whatever method, you're giving up your old identity and taking on a copy. That identity part is crucial because if you want to, for example, do OAuth with ActivityPub, your old server technically owns an identity of yours that's just as valid as your new one. It's better on atproto because your identity is always your own (with the caveat that it's currently managed by Bluesky's https://plc.directory https://plc.directory, but like they've said, they're working to move this outside the company). ActivityPub will never give you true account portability unless they do something like atproto and allow identity portability. Atproto allows this already. You can move your PDS (where your data is hosted, and the thing that controls access to OAuth) to a new one whenever you want.
toofy 2y ago
well my comment was specifically pointing out that giving someone agency is the opposite of “a problem.” i was pointing out that having options to spend your freetime how and where you like is the literal opposite of forcing you to “the will of a server” or whatever their statement was. to your comment, the ability to keep posts and such is going to vary by which system you’re using, for example: - twitter, absolutely not. they want to force you to spend your free time around whoever they say. and they absolutely want to make it difficult for you to have freedom to leave or the freedom to associate. in the before times there were sites you could use to move your contacts and follow the same people on Mastodon. elon hated the idea of people having freedom so he shut that down shortly after he took power. for this reason i recommend people start manually building their contacts on other sites now so the move will be easier once you’re ready. - threads, im not familiar enough with it yet to say for sure. i have a couple of accounts there but honestly, ill never use them, its zuckerberg… facebook… no thanks. been burned too many times by these people. - Mastodon, almost entirely yes. you can backup and download both your posts and your contacts. i dont worry too much about it, but if it’s something you’re super worried about just do like we all do with photos, docs, etc… keep a backup. i know some people keep a backup federated account mirroring follows, etc… for worst case scenarios. i occasionally download my follows and posts, but im not really too worried about it. - bluesky, yep. i love blue sky but for different reasons from Mastodon, i use them both all day long. just for different reasons. blue sky doesn’t at all have the same quality of community as Mastodon or even hn. it’s nice, but its not community focused. its more like twitter before eternal september took over. at the end of the day tho, i don’t have a lot of hope for it, the VC people will definitely figure out a way to ruin it. but to bring it back to my original comment: the important part is that we have the agency to utilize freedom of movement and association. it should creep you out when someone tries to convince you that having agency is a problem. having freedom to jump from place to place, server to server, community to community is a good thing and its crazy when these people keep attempting to convince us that jumping around is "a problem". when someone tries to force you to spend your playtime somewhere you don’t want to be, or when they try to convince you “no, you should want to be around eric especially when he’s a dickbag.” that should make your hair stand up with red flags. and that’s what these people have been trying to convince us for years—“noooo, why would you want to spend your free time somewhere else having fun? dont go enjoy yourself! you want to be here! no one here likes each other and everyone is screaming at each other! thats what you really want to do with your freetime!”