3 ms·

Mastodon is not decentralized, it's federated. It doesn't solve some of the problems that come with centralization, it just creates more entities that will have

by pxoe 2y ago

Mastodon is not decentralized, it's federated. It doesn't solve some of the problems that come with centralization, it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server). And funnily, it doesn't even solve data portability entirely (you can't actually move your posts). Mastodon's "decentralization" is even worse than a "theoretical promise" of one, cause it's a just marketing promise when it literally just does not work that way in some aspects. You're still "centralized" to whatever server you signed up on, still with caveats that an actual centralized service would have. It's better, but it's truly not all it's made out to be. Definitely not to the point where such sneer and kind of just, speculatively making shit up, wouldn't look just ironic.

rtpg 2y ago
"Being at will of a server" is always a problem, but with federation you can choose which server you are at the will of. You still need trust, but that trust can be chosen by you based off of your needs (and that trust can be placed in yourself). You're on a different part of the trust gradient. Meanwhile there's a certain quality of service that can be obtained with "mere" federation that is much tougher for many decentralized strategies. The actual topology matters, but federation is a pretty decent model IMO! There's a reason that e-mail has been so useful as a system for so long!
- lifthrasiir 2y ago
  And the federation also made the spam email problem a lot worse ;-) Anyhow, federation should be seen as a part of specific strategy for decentralization; federation itself is not decentralization and cannot achieve it without more bits---like topological consideration. Many federated protocols tend to push those bits into the horizon and fail at scale when that horizon eventually approaches, while ATProto is at least explicitly constructed with eventual decentralization in the mind and seems to be fine for now. Mastodon will need to prove much more than ATProto in order to show that it's capable for eventual decentralization in contrast.
  - davexunit 2y ago
    Saying the fediverse is not decentralized is a wild take.
    - lifthrasiir 2y ago
      My assumption is that the fediverse is seek to replicate what was already possible in the centralized manner---a large-scale social network in this case. Mastodon is of course decentralized by nature, but but it is not yet a decentralized social network under my assumption because it doesn't fully demonstrate a large-scale social network right now. To be clear, neither does ATProto/BlueSky right now! But scaling a social network is shown to be hard even without decentralization and it seems more likely that Mastodon would hit the scaling issue earlier than ATProto. That's what I meant by "capable for eventual decentralization". One particularly visible weakness of Mastodon is that there is no working and efficient mechanism to operate on the entire network. Searching and algorithmic feed [1] would be major features affected by this weakness. I know some consider this to be intentional, but if that's true then Mastodon can't be really said to replicate a social network at all. It is yet another matter whether such features are warranted or not, but if we believe that something like a worldwide social network should exist, then we don't yet have a clear answer that a social network without such features would be technically or socially scalable to that extent, so not being able to fully replicate an existing social network is important enough to consider. [1] This includes trivial feeds like all posts from my followers, because in my knowledge a large number of follows is not really scalable in Mastodon.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  We've gone from digital totalitarianism to digital feudalism. This does not seem like an improvement.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    Perhaps manorialism rather than feudalism, which implies certain bidirectional duties. It may not be a huge improvement when identities and posts can't be migrated, but it's still an incremental one.
    - rtpg 2y ago
      While I don't really know about posts being migrated, identities at least can be migrated in the common circumstance of someone simply wanting to change providers and the old host being willing to hold onto the "moved" record for long enough
  - rtpg 2y ago
    I don't think that is correct? You can spin up your own instance and do stuff on it. The fact that some people want to share their resources isn't feudalism.
toofy 2y ago
> it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server). this isn’t a “problem” that needs to be solved. you’re not “at the will of the server” in a federated environment, its the actual literal opposite. if i don’t like the server operators or if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like. this is a good thing, not a “problem.” the ability to freely move and the freedom to associate is incredibly important. and for some weird reason people keep pretending like these things aren’t important if it’s online. its ridiculous. if i don’t want to spend my play time around eric, i should absolutely be able to move and play somewhere else without eric. that’s actual freedom. if you try to keep me in one place or force me to play with eric, you’re trapping me. no, the ability to pick and choose how, why, where, and with who i spend my free time is important, its not a “problem”. that’s agency, and i wish people would quit arguing against agency and calling it a problem.
- lukan 2y ago
  "if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like." So everytime you move, can you take your existing network and posts and messages with you, or do you have to start from scratch every time?
  - ttepasse 2y ago
    You can take your existing network with you, Mastodon has Accounts redirects and follower migrations. Your own content not yet. While Mastodon-the-software has an export function, there is no import as yet. But that is a solvable problem. https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/ https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/
    - echoangle 2y ago
      Does the migration also work if the server I’m migrating from actively wants to prevent me from taking over my stuff? If they ban me from their server because they don’t like me, they aren’t going to set up a redirect for me, right? Is this a real thing that happens?
zimpenfish 2y ago
> (you can't actually move your posts) You can export and import, I believe, for some instances but generically re-posting them to a new instance with the old date isn't currently feasible[0], correct. You also need to re-federate them to get the "links" correct (and probably de-federate the old) which causes confusing results if your client doesn't handle backdated posts correctly (and most of the ones I was using in 2023 didn't.) There's probably a solution[1][2] but I think it's something the ActivityPub people just haven't given much thought to just yet. [0] No date field in https://docs.joinmastodon.org/methods/statuses/#create https://docs.joinmastodon.org/methods/statuses/#create [1] When I was importing a 10 year Twitter history to my Akkoma instance, I just tweaked the code to a) allow backdating posts, b) allow certain accounts to backdate posts and c) not federate backdated posts from those accounts. Doesn't really solve the full problem but worked for me. [2] Obviously there's other problems such as people creating fake history, etc., if you're allowed to post backdated statuses.
- simgt 2y ago
  > [2] Obviously there's other problems such as people creating fake history, etc., if you're allowed to post backdated statuses. I don't think it's a problem really, but I may be mistaken about what the goal of these platforms is. I can also create a fake history on a blog or news site and backdate posts. But in the odd case where it matters, say for a copyright dispute or something, it'd be very hard to pretend that the history is legit and very easy to find clues that it is not.
  - zimpenfish 2y ago
    > I can also create a fake history on a blog or news site Without the implied "authority" of something like Mastodon[0] or Twitter[1], or Facebook, etc. though. You can (currently) point to a post on a $BIGNETWORK and say "I posted that then" and be credibly believed. If you allow backdated (or timestamp-edited) posts, that goes out of the window, surely. [0] Ok, not if you're running your own instance, obviously. [1] Who resisted adding editing for years for similar reasons.
davexunit 2y ago
Federation is a form of decentralization. It has its issues but it doesn't mean it isn't decentralized. Moving towards distributed, peer-to-peer applications is the path forward.
a2128 2y ago
A federated network is a decentralized network. You're probably thinking of distributed networks, which federation is not.

by pxoe 2y ago

rtpg 2y ago

"Being at will of a server" is always a problem, but with federation you can choose which server you are at the will of. You still need trust, but that trust can be chosen by you based off of your needs (and that trust can be placed in yourself). You're on a different part of the trust gradient. Meanwhile there's a certain quality of service that can be obtained with "mere" federation that is much tougher for many decentralized strategies. The actual topology matters, but federation is a pretty decent model IMO! There's a reason that e-mail has been so useful as a system for so long!

lifthrasiir 2y ago
And the federation also made the spam email problem a lot worse ;-) Anyhow, federation should be seen as a part of specific strategy for decentralization; federation itself is not decentralization and cannot achieve it without more bits---like topological consideration. Many federated protocols tend to push those bits into the horizon and fail at scale when that horizon eventually approaches, while ATProto is at least explicitly constructed with eventual decentralization in the mind and seems to be fine for now. Mastodon will need to prove much more than ATProto in order to show that it's capable for eventual decentralization in contrast.
- davexunit 2y ago
  Saying the fediverse is not decentralized is a wild take.
  - lifthrasiir 2y ago
    My assumption is that the fediverse is seek to replicate what was already possible in the centralized manner---a large-scale social network in this case. Mastodon is of course decentralized by nature, but but it is not yet a decentralized social network under my assumption because it doesn't fully demonstrate a large-scale social network right now. To be clear, neither does ATProto/BlueSky right now! But scaling a social network is shown to be hard even without decentralization and it seems more likely that Mastodon would hit the scaling issue earlier than ATProto. That's what I meant by "capable for eventual decentralization". One particularly visible weakness of Mastodon is that there is no working and efficient mechanism to operate on the entire network. Searching and algorithmic feed [1] would be major features affected by this weakness. I know some consider this to be intentional, but if that's true then Mastodon can't be really said to replicate a social network at all. It is yet another matter whether such features are warranted or not, but if we believe that something like a worldwide social network should exist, then we don't yet have a clear answer that a social network without such features would be technically or socially scalable to that extent, so not being able to fully replicate an existing social network is important enough to consider. [1] This includes trivial feeds like all posts from my followers, because in my knowledge a large number of follows is not really scalable in Mastodon.
llm_trw 2y ago
We've gone from digital totalitarianism to digital feudalism. This does not seem like an improvement.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Perhaps manorialism rather than feudalism, which implies certain bidirectional duties. It may not be a huge improvement when identities and posts can't be migrated, but it's still an incremental one.
  - rtpg 2y ago
    While I don't really know about posts being migrated, identities at least can be migrated in the common circumstance of someone simply wanting to change providers and the old host being willing to hold onto the "moved" record for long enough
- rtpg 2y ago
  I don't think that is correct? You can spin up your own instance and do stuff on it. The fact that some people want to share their resources isn't feudalism.

toofy 2y ago

> it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server). this isn’t a “problem” that needs to be solved. you’re not “at the will of the server” in a federated environment, its the actual literal opposite. if i don’t like the server operators or if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like. this is a good thing, not a “problem.” the ability to freely move and the freedom to associate is incredibly important. and for some weird reason people keep pretending like these things aren’t important if it’s online. its ridiculous. if i don’t want to spend my play time around eric, i should absolutely be able to move and play somewhere else without eric. that’s actual freedom. if you try to keep me in one place or force me to play with eric, you’re trapping me. no, the ability to pick and choose how, why, where, and with who i spend my free time is important, its not a “problem”. that’s agency, and i wish people would quit arguing against agency and calling it a problem.

lukan 2y ago
"if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like." So everytime you move, can you take your existing network and posts and messages with you, or do you have to start from scratch every time?
- ttepasse 2y ago
  You can take your existing network with you, Mastodon has Accounts redirects and follower migrations. Your own content not yet. While Mastodon-the-software has an export function, there is no import as yet. But that is a solvable problem. https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/ https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/
  - echoangle 2y ago
    Does the migration also work if the server I’m migrating from actively wants to prevent me from taking over my stuff? If they ban me from their server because they don’t like me, they aren’t going to set up a redirect for me, right? Is this a real thing that happens?

zimpenfish 2y ago

> (you can't actually move your posts) You can export and import, I believe, for some instances but generically re-posting them to a new instance with the old date isn't currently feasible[0], correct. You also need to re-federate them to get the "links" correct (and probably de-federate the old) which causes confusing results if your client doesn't handle backdated posts correctly (and most of the ones I was using in 2023 didn't.) There's probably a solution[1][2] but I think it's something the ActivityPub people just haven't given much thought to just yet. [0] No date field in https://docs.joinmastodon.org/methods/statuses/#create https://docs.joinmastodon.org/methods/statuses/#create [1] When I was importing a 10 year Twitter history to my Akkoma instance, I just tweaked the code to a) allow backdating posts, b) allow certain accounts to backdate posts and c) not federate backdated posts from those accounts. Doesn't really solve the full problem but worked for me. [2] Obviously there's other problems such as people creating fake history, etc., if you're allowed to post backdated statuses.

simgt 2y ago
> [2] Obviously there's other problems such as people creating fake history, etc., if you're allowed to post backdated statuses. I don't think it's a problem really, but I may be mistaken about what the goal of these platforms is. I can also create a fake history on a blog or news site and backdate posts. But in the odd case where it matters, say for a copyright dispute or something, it'd be very hard to pretend that the history is legit and very easy to find clues that it is not.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  > I can also create a fake history on a blog or news site Without the implied "authority" of something like Mastodon[0] or Twitter[1], or Facebook, etc. though. You can (currently) point to a post on a $BIGNETWORK and say "I posted that then" and be credibly believed. If you allow backdated (or timestamp-edited) posts, that goes out of the window, surely. [0] Ok, not if you're running your own instance, obviously. [1] Who resisted adding editing for years for similar reasons.

davexunit 2y ago

Federation is a form of decentralization. It has its issues but it doesn't mean it isn't decentralized. Moving towards distributed, peer-to-peer applications is the path forward.

a2128 2y ago

A federated network is a decentralized network. You're probably thinking of distributed networks, which federation is not.