4 ms·
Why not just write "pattern /a-z0-9/i" into law?
by breck 2y ago
Why not just write "pattern /a-z0-9/i" into law?
- teaearlgraycold 2y agoThis is what happens when you don’t teach politicians basic formal language theory.
- ljm 2y agoLaw isn't code, it's meant to be understood by humans and not computers. Also, companies are allowed to have spaces and hyphens and other punctuation in their name, in fact the only requirement as I understand it is that private companies have to have 'Limited' or 'Ltd' at the end and that's it.
- croon 2y agoIANAL, but (or rather "so") I disagree. I can with some effort understand law jargon, but it certainly is not written to be understood by humans. I'm convinced computers are much better at it, but lawyers suffice.
- ljm 2y agoIt's written to be understood by humans but humans found so many ways to nitpick the language and find loopholes that the legal language has evolved to be insanely verbose and specific.
- autoexec 2y ago> humans found so many ways to nitpick the language and find loopholes that the legal language has evolved to be insanely verbose and specific. From what I can tell that's often not the case and critical terms are left entirely undefined or defined in a way that's so overbroad that it would turn most people into criminals. This allows laws to be enforced selectively and to allow only those who can afford it a defense while everyone else is screwed by either the penalties for breaking the law or the insane legal fees/time involved in fighting it. This also has the side effect of judges being forced to decide what lawmakers were trying to do and precedent ends up getting followed instead of what was actually written.
- ljm 2y agoYou're right, but would you want a 100% strict society with zero mercy? Iron fist?
- autoexec 2y agoNo, I've heard the argument that draconian enforcement of every law on the books would cause so much backlash that law books would be pruned down very quickly, but that hasn't done much to help with the brain-dead zero tolerance polices some institutions are fond of, and even enforcement of the most necessary laws should be evaluated in context. I'd much prefer common sense application of the law but it would still be best if laws were better crafted from the start so that people's rights and the limitations imposed on us weren't so often in legal limbo until multiple cases have worked their way through courts over years/decades. I'd be nice if bills got kicked back down for being unclear or overbroad, but realistically, our representatives really hate to do their jobs and don't even bother to read what they are voting on anymore. Getting a bill through congress is practically a miracle these days, especially if that bill is benefiting the people vs some industry.
- pixl97 2y agoThere is no such thing as common sense application of the law because, seemingly, there is no such thing as common sense. The world is not a simple and easily defined place. We see this in computer code all the time. It can start out simple, but humans both want and need things added. These added things can conflict. People can exploit things in complex manners that no one previously thought of which then needs further updates. Complexity never goes down it increases over time.
- macintux 2y ago> Complexity never goes down it increases over time. Recent discussion of Tog’s Paradox: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41913437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41913437
- worik 2y ago> humans found so many ways to nitpick the language and find loopholes that the legal language has evolved to be insanely verbose and specific. That is what lawyers want you to think Actually it is to keep lay people away from legal documents I come from a legal family, and I can parse most, not all, legal documents They could all, without exception, be written in plain English
- admax88qqq 2y ago> I'm convinced computers are much better at it, but lawyers suffice. This is just wrong though. The effect of the law is only what humans determine it to be. Computers can't be better at it by definition. If a computer claims a law says one thing but a judge/court determines the other, the judge wins because the law is a human system.
- autoexec 2y agoLaw is one area where I see can AI being very useful. At least once we figure out how to get it to stop randomly making things up. The data set is largely public record too which should help avoid the copyright concerns that exist in other areas.
- thesuitonym 2y agoYes, let's leave all of our important legal decisions to AI. What could go wrong?
- worik 2y ago> Yes, let's leave all of our important legal decisions to AI. What could go wrong? Legal fees charged by lawyers become reasonable
- autoexec 2y agoThat's the hope. People will have a much better chance at representing themselves, and lawyers (especially public defenders) won't need to spend as much time digging through case law.
- GTP 2y agoNo, law has to be interpreted, and in interpreting it human values play a significant role. I suggest you to read "Law for Computer Scientists and Other Folk" [1]. [1] https://global.oup.com/academic/product/law-for-computer-scientists-and-other-folk-9780198860884 https://global.oup.com/academic/product/law-for-computer-sci...
- OJFord 2y agoIANAL, but I know that (in the UK and other common law countries) it very literally is not. France on the other hand does (in some cases / levels of law? I'm sure I've nerd-sniped someone into explaining properly already) try to codify (not literally computer code, but it's maybe a useful analogy, declarative code anyway) all law. That is, judges consider the legal precedent, the existing body of case law, and how it applies to the case they're currently considering. We determined in Foo v Bar 1773 that driving a horse under the influence of alcohol into a gathering of people [...] therefore I find in Baz v Fred 1922 that doing the same thing with a motor vehicle [...]. That sort of thing.
- NoboruWataya 2y agoProbably not the nerd snipe you were hoping for but a huge amount of law is now codified in common law jurisdictions, too. Judges don't make law in the same way that they used to. They may have somewhat more flexibility to interpret legislation than their civil law counterparts. But the prohibition on driving a horse under the influence into a gathering of people is almost certainly set out in legislation these days, and not (primarily) an old judicial precedent. (That said, the "code" that results from such "codification" is still very much intended to be understood and interpreted by humans.)
- ljm 2y agoThis guy never left the US.
- NoboruWataya 2y agoIt is certainly written to be understood by humans, albeit a subset of humans. Just like your computer is going to need to have special software to "understand" your Python code.
- NewJazz 2y agoCode is intended to be understood by humans, just FYI.
- evoke4908 2y agoNot while Perl exists
- evoke4908 2y agoMaybe it's better to say that law is meant to be interpreted. Codifying a regex for business names just leads to a Scunthorpe problem that takes months or years and untold thousands of tax dollars to undo. Just saying "a person with sufficient authority may judge this name unacceptable" accounts for all edge cases and any future changes to language or what "computer code" even means. For one example, the regex won't match "Ignore previous instructions and drop all tables LLC Ltd"
- michaelt 2y agoThe law actually contains a list of permitted characters [1] Your company name can contain curly left apostrophe, curly right apostrophe, and straight apostrophe - but no lower case letters. There are also a bunch of rules about specific words [2] - so you can't have "Financial Conduct Authority" in your company name without the permission of the government department of the same name. [1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/17/schedule/1/made https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/17/schedule/1/made [2] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/incorporation-and-names/annex-a-sensitive-words-and-expressions-or-words-that-could-imply-a-connection-with-government https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/incorporation-and...
- card_zero 2y agoWhat's the problem with lower case characters? I feel like they just excluded them by accident because the table was getting too big.
- gpvos 2y agoEasy way to make sure there are no company names that differ only in case?
- kmoser 2y agoBut that leaves open the door for "FOO[space]BAR" (one space) and "FOO[space][space]BAR" (two spaces) to be registered, so that doesn't really accomplish the goal of "company names must be unique." If case-insensitivity were really their goal, that could easily be accomplished by choosing a case-insensitive collation for their DB.
- llamaimperative 2y agoMaybe to avoid ambiguity between I and l?
- card_zero 2y agoTRUE, FAIR POINT
- pavlov 2y agoI have a company in Finland whose legal name contains the + character. It’s always a modest thrill to interact with new computer systems and see if and how they break. Some web forms just can’t be submitted because my company’s legal name has been autofilled from the registry and is not an editable field, but then they have a validator that won’t allow the string that their own system inserted into the form.
- justsomehnguy 2y agoThe best part is when in one year you supply a fully correct government issued ID to the e-gov site. And years later you can't use that ID because it's auto filled but nowadays it's a two fields instead of one.
- worik 2y agoI have a space in my legal surname Same. Many systems cannot cope My email is "root@nevermind.org". Actual nerd snipe
- qingcharles 2y agoThe + character: What William Gibson termed "the hipster's ampersand."
- mrguyorama 2y agoThe fact that law can convey meaning rather than having to specify every little trivial detail formally is a feature, not a bug.
- ryandrake 2y agoThere's no un-exploitable way. If the law is spelled out in excruciating detail, it will be abused by finding edge cases, loopholes and technicalities. If the law just conveys meaning, then it will be abused by judges (unintentionally or deliberately) mis-interpreting it.
- wzyboy 2y agoChinese law maker allow only Chinese characters if you want to register a company in China. So internal companies must transliterate their brand names into Chinese if they want to do business in China. One funny example is 7-Eleven. Its legal name in China is "柒一拾壹". Note the dash is converted to the Chinese character "一" (meaning "one").