5 ms·

Not sure how either side in this dispute are going to “win”.

by vr46 2y ago

diggan 2y ago
"Winning" for Boeing would be workers being happy with status quo and nothing changes. "Winning" for the workers means getting a deal people vote "yes" for (last proposal was rejected by 64% of the voters). Not sure how this is so complicated for some. Seems they're getting closer, previous proposal was rejected by 95% of the workers, so seems it's going in the right direction at least. If Boeing wants to stop loosing money at the rate they're currently doing, they better come up with a acceptable deal quickly.
- Neonlicht 2y ago
  I see a lot of anti Union talk on American social media as if the shit Boeing is currently in is somehow the fault of the workers.
  - linotype 2y ago
    Many Americans aren’t getting a 35% pay rise.
    - OkayPhysicist 2y ago
      If only there was a way for those Americans to band together for leverage against their bosses to demand better pay. Maybe we could even pass some laws protecting their right to do so.
      - linotype 2y ago
        If only.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      Or a defined-benefits retirement plan (pension).
    - Pet_Ant 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
      - mc32 2y ago
        So, to hell with it and sink the ship you're on to spite the captain? I think you can fight those fights when you get through the storm not while you're in the eye of it. I have not sympathy for management, but this move is cutting off their noses to spite their faces. It's not symbiotic. Obviously management have been absolute bastards in managing the company almost to the point of bankruptcy, but it would be foolhardy to add insult to injury and speed up the company's demise --which it can only blame itself for. If I were the union, rather than ask for large raises at inopportune times, I would ask for veto power in the Board to overrule stupid moves like the 737-MAX fiasco. This would save jobs and provide more opportunity for profits and raises.
        catlikesshrimp 2y ago
        It is impossible to know for outsiders if the demands are fair or not, without historic details. Boeing will blame the workers at least partially when they file bankrupcy. At least other companies will take workers more seriously. Historic example: Banana companies in poor countries were terrible. Lives and environment were destroyed in exchange for years of explotation. It was not fair for the workers. Absolutely without a doubt in retrospective The workers always lose, but without a fight the situation doesn't improve for them.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      Now they know how to get one.
    - class3shock 2y ago
      The Boeing employees aren't either, it's 8-9% over multiple years. Additionally, this makes it seem like you are implying, "They are getting something that others aren't, so they should be happy and take it.". IMHO the takeaway should be, "The union has got them a much deserved raise, more Americans who are being underpaid should join a union to get fair compensation.".
      - linotype 2y ago
        Only 8% a year. How will they get by.
        consteval 2y ago
        This isn't an argument, you just kind of sound jealous and self-destructive.
        linotype 2y ago
        I’m a human not a robot.
        consteval 2y ago
        Fair enough, but you're not doing yourself any favors by being self-destructive. In fact I think the nature of self-destruction means you're hurting yourself. If you think 8% is outrageous for them, why not demand more for yourself? Instead of kneecapping people you don't even know out of a somewhat pathetic need to feel adequate, why not simply match them? Then, you won't have to look up to people you feel are beneath you.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        linotype 2y ago
        No need for personal attacks. This isn’t Facebook.
  - oldpersonintx 2y ago
    it wasn't the CEO who left a broom inside the rudder assembly of a jetliner Boeing has had decades of bad management for sure, but the unions have gone along for the ride so now, Boeing products are considered inferior; how can Boeing charge more than Airbus for an inferior product? the unions have a weak hand anyway...where else will they work? they are Boeing lifers one way or another
    - diggan 2y ago
      > they are Boeing lifers one way or another Gonna be interesting to see if this ends up true or not :) In the end, there won't be a Boeing if no one wants to work there, and no one is gonna want to work there if you can't sustain your own life on what you get from working there.
    - class3shock 2y ago
      It wasn't the unions that prioritized shareholder value over everything else for the last few decades. Saying they were along for the ride is accurate but don't forget there is a serious difference in power between the csuite and everyone else.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  > "Winning" for the workers means getting a deal people vote "yes" for This is also what "winning" means for Boeing, they don't want machinists striking forever. Both parties obviously just want an agreement that both parties will say "yes" to > If Boeing wants to stop loosing money at the rate they're currently doing, they better come up with a acceptable deal quickly. Again, the same goes for the other party here. The one Boeing proposed seems acceptable to me, but I guess the machinists are free to reject whatever they want and propose whatever they want in response. I'm genuinely curious what they even want, aside from the pension plan they obviously won't get.
  - diggan 2y ago
    > Again, the same goes for the other party here. Not really, the workers are loosing money since Boeing is refusing to come up with an acceptable deal, the reason for the strike in the first place is because they weren't paid enough for the job they're doing. > The one Boeing proposed seems acceptable to me Are you a machinist working for Boeing? I'm guessing you, like most of us, are involved in software one way or another, and it's seems hard in general for people to empathize with blue-collar workers unless you've been one yourself. > I'm genuinely curious what they even want, aside from the pension plan they obviously won't get. TLDR from the initial demands: - 40% raise - Reinstate the defined benefit pension plan they lost a decade ago - Higher contributions to employee 401k retirement funds Seems like it's pretty well known what the workers want, yet Boeing still puts forward proposals that don't meet the demands. And besides that, Boeing shared the last proposal to the media for even approaching the workers with it. Not sure what they're thinking.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      > the workers are loosing money since Boeing is refusing to come up with an acceptable deal Right, I believe that is what I said: both Boeing and the machinists are losing money because both Boeing and the machinists are refusing to come up with a mutually acceptable deal. > I'm genuinely curious what they even want, aside from the pension plan they obviously won't get. TLDR from the initial demands I know what the initial demands of both Boeing and the machinists were, and now that they've both announced their initial demands, we move on to both parties compromising. Surely neither party thinks they'll get everything they want at the expense of the other party? That's no recipe for a working compromise. Like do the machinists actually think companies can afford pension plans for everybody? Have the machinists done the math on that? Honestly, it feels weird asking 1 former employer to take on the responsibility for guaranteeing a decades-long retirement. That responsibility should fall to individuals and/or governments. I view the role of employers as paying workers to work, with both parties being able to terminate the deal by leaving, and with both parties keeping what they accrued during the deal.
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  Winning for Boeing is the stock price goes up. Anything else is just noise.
mc32 2y ago
Yeah, I dunno. They are asking for raises at the worst time for the manufacturer. They should do this when the company is running on all cylinders --then they can strike and have leverage and not "shoot themselves in the foot". It's like if you are a prehistoric hunter and you ask yourself while injured and vulnerable to bag your biggest most arduous prey. I'd save that for a healthy day and today just catch something to live for tomorrow.

Not sure how either side in this dispute are going to “win”.

by vr46 2y ago

Not sure how either side in this dispute are going to “win”.

"Winning" for Boeing would be workers being happy with status quo and nothing changes. "Winning" for the workers means getting a deal people vote "yes" for (last proposal was rejected by 64% of the voters). Not sure how this is so complicated for some. Seems they're getting closer, previous proposal was rejected by 95% of the workers, so seems it's going in the right direction at least. If Boeing wants to stop loosing money at the rate they're currently doing, they better come up with a acceptable deal quickly.

Neonlicht 2y ago
I see a lot of anti Union talk on American social media as if the shit Boeing is currently in is somehow the fault of the workers.
- linotype 2y ago
  Many Americans aren’t getting a 35% pay rise.
  - OkayPhysicist 2y ago
    If only there was a way for those Americans to band together for leverage against their bosses to demand better pay. Maybe we could even pass some laws protecting their right to do so.
    - linotype 2y ago
      If only.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    Or a defined-benefits retirement plan (pension).
  - Pet_Ant 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
    - mc32 2y ago
      So, to hell with it and sink the ship you're on to spite the captain? I think you can fight those fights when you get through the storm not while you're in the eye of it. I have not sympathy for management, but this move is cutting off their noses to spite their faces. It's not symbiotic. Obviously management have been absolute bastards in managing the company almost to the point of bankruptcy, but it would be foolhardy to add insult to injury and speed up the company's demise --which it can only blame itself for. If I were the union, rather than ask for large raises at inopportune times, I would ask for veto power in the Board to overrule stupid moves like the 737-MAX fiasco. This would save jobs and provide more opportunity for profits and raises.
      - catlikesshrimp 2y ago
        It is impossible to know for outsiders if the demands are fair or not, without historic details. Boeing will blame the workers at least partially when they file bankrupcy. At least other companies will take workers more seriously. Historic example: Banana companies in poor countries were terrible. Lives and environment were destroyed in exchange for years of explotation. It was not fair for the workers. Absolutely without a doubt in retrospective The workers always lose, but without a fight the situation doesn't improve for them.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    Now they know how to get one.
  - class3shock 2y ago
    The Boeing employees aren't either, it's 8-9% over multiple years. Additionally, this makes it seem like you are implying, "They are getting something that others aren't, so they should be happy and take it.". IMHO the takeaway should be, "The union has got them a much deserved raise, more Americans who are being underpaid should join a union to get fair compensation.".
    - linotype 2y ago
      Only 8% a year. How will they get by.
      - consteval 2y ago
        This isn't an argument, you just kind of sound jealous and self-destructive.
        linotype 2y ago
        I’m a human not a robot.
        consteval 2y ago
        Fair enough, but you're not doing yourself any favors by being self-destructive. In fact I think the nature of self-destruction means you're hurting yourself. If you think 8% is outrageous for them, why not demand more for yourself? Instead of kneecapping people you don't even know out of a somewhat pathetic need to feel adequate, why not simply match them? Then, you won't have to look up to people you feel are beneath you.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        linotype 2y ago
        No need for personal attacks. This isn’t Facebook.
- oldpersonintx 2y ago
  it wasn't the CEO who left a broom inside the rudder assembly of a jetliner Boeing has had decades of bad management for sure, but the unions have gone along for the ride so now, Boeing products are considered inferior; how can Boeing charge more than Airbus for an inferior product? the unions have a weak hand anyway...where else will they work? they are Boeing lifers one way or another
  - diggan 2y ago
    > they are Boeing lifers one way or another Gonna be interesting to see if this ends up true or not :) In the end, there won't be a Boeing if no one wants to work there, and no one is gonna want to work there if you can't sustain your own life on what you get from working there.
  - class3shock 2y ago
    It wasn't the unions that prioritized shareholder value over everything else for the last few decades. Saying they were along for the ride is accurate but don't forget there is a serious difference in power between the csuite and everyone else.
ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
> "Winning" for the workers means getting a deal people vote "yes" for This is also what "winning" means for Boeing, they don't want machinists striking forever. Both parties obviously just want an agreement that both parties will say "yes" to > If Boeing wants to stop loosing money at the rate they're currently doing, they better come up with a acceptable deal quickly. Again, the same goes for the other party here. The one Boeing proposed seems acceptable to me, but I guess the machinists are free to reject whatever they want and propose whatever they want in response. I'm genuinely curious what they even want, aside from the pension plan they obviously won't get.
- diggan 2y ago
  > Again, the same goes for the other party here. Not really, the workers are loosing money since Boeing is refusing to come up with an acceptable deal, the reason for the strike in the first place is because they weren't paid enough for the job they're doing. > The one Boeing proposed seems acceptable to me Are you a machinist working for Boeing? I'm guessing you, like most of us, are involved in software one way or another, and it's seems hard in general for people to empathize with blue-collar workers unless you've been one yourself. > I'm genuinely curious what they even want, aside from the pension plan they obviously won't get. TLDR from the initial demands: - 40% raise - Reinstate the defined benefit pension plan they lost a decade ago - Higher contributions to employee 401k retirement funds Seems like it's pretty well known what the workers want, yet Boeing still puts forward proposals that don't meet the demands. And besides that, Boeing shared the last proposal to the media for even approaching the workers with it. Not sure what they're thinking.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    > the workers are loosing money since Boeing is refusing to come up with an acceptable deal Right, I believe that is what I said: both Boeing and the machinists are losing money because both Boeing and the machinists are refusing to come up with a mutually acceptable deal. > I'm genuinely curious what they even want, aside from the pension plan they obviously won't get. TLDR from the initial demands I know what the initial demands of both Boeing and the machinists were, and now that they've both announced their initial demands, we move on to both parties compromising. Surely neither party thinks they'll get everything they want at the expense of the other party? That's no recipe for a working compromise. Like do the machinists actually think companies can afford pension plans for everybody? Have the machinists done the math on that? Honestly, it feels weird asking 1 former employer to take on the responsibility for guaranteeing a decades-long retirement. That responsibility should fall to individuals and/or governments. I view the role of employers as paying workers to work, with both parties being able to terminate the deal by leaving, and with both parties keeping what they accrued during the deal.
sidewndr46 2y ago
Winning for Boeing is the stock price goes up. Anything else is just noise.

mc32 2y ago

Yeah, I dunno. They are asking for raises at the worst time for the manufacturer. They should do this when the company is running on all cylinders --then they can strike and have leverage and not "shoot themselves in the foot". It's like if you are a prehistoric hunter and you ask yourself while injured and vulnerable to bag your biggest most arduous prey. I'd save that for a healthy day and today just catch something to live for tomorrow.