7 ms·

Maybe. Worth considering that in terms of relative size, Israel has a population of 10 million, Jews in the world number ~14 million. Whereas the Arab world,

by edanm 2y ago

Maybe. Worth considering that in terms of relative size, Israel has a population of 10 million, Jews in the world number ~14 million. Whereas the Arab world, which tends to be relatively anti-Israel, numbers ~220 million. And Muslims, which tend to be anti-Israel as well, number 1.2 billion. So just in terms of number of voices, the natural pro-Israel voices [1] are vastly outnumbered by the natural anti-Israel voices. Think about how this impacts what you hear, how this impacts the votes in the UN (which is not democratic but votes are by country), how this impacts economic reactions (number of consumers), etc. [1] This is a sweeping generalization, but it is statistically true that Jews are usually pro-Israel and Arabs and Muslims are usually anti-Israel. With other religions/ethnicities it's more complicated.

hbt 2y ago
Though global populations show a larger anti-Israel sentiment, Western media and internet forums don't reflect this balance. Western media often aligns with Israeli perspectives due to strategic alliances, lobbying influence, and media ownership dynamics, framing Israel’s actions as defensive while sidelining broader Arab or Palestinian views. Online, pro-Israel narratives are reinforced by organized digital campaigns and moderation practices that shape public discourse. Meanwhile, pro-Palestinian voices lack comparable resources and organization in Western spaces, limiting their visibility. This creates a media and digital environment where Western audiences are exposed to narratives that don’t fully represent the global spectrum of perspectives.
- edanm 2y ago
  > Though global populations show a larger anti-Israel sentiment, Western media and internet forums don't reflect this balance. I'm not sure you're right. Isn't this a bit hard to judge without first deciding what is true and what constitutes bias? I'm fairly certain we don't agree with on either of these. Most Israelis consider things like the BBC and the NYT to be biased against Israel. Are you sure they're wrong?
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Asparagus7426 2y ago
      Yeah those monsters that you're imagining are a brainchild of your echo chamber.
    - zionistshill 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - meiraleal 2y ago
        Isn't it too shameless to create a fake named zionistshill?
    - edanm 2y ago
      That is not what most Israelis think. The fact that you so easily think this badly of an entire country speaks a lot about your own biased views.
  - nielsbot 2y ago
    I’d say the media’s attitude towards Israel and Palestine is conveniently summarized in the Ta-Nehisi Coates interview with Tony Dokupil.
    - edanm 2y ago
      1. That's just one interview, I'm not sure it's actually representative. 2. Even if you think it is, that's just the US media specifically. I agree that they tend to be relatively pro-Israel, especially compared to other countries, but there are other countries. 3. If we accept that this is representative, can we also consider Ta-Nehisi Coates's book itself to be representative of the attitude of "intellectuals" in the US on Israel? As he himself said, he came into the topic biased against Israel, went to the West Bank to "study" the issue for 10 days only, chose not to talk to any Israeli at all to get any other side of the issue, and wrote what is likely to be the highest-selling book this year about the topic. Not exactly a great example of journalistic rigor, IMO.
cutler 2y ago
But Zionists have AIPAC and its equivalent in Europe and Australia.
runarberg 2y ago
I’ve always had a problem with this statistic. It is at best an irrelevant obfuscation of more plausible explanations, the most plausible—as well as simplest—being the one that your parent offered. There are plenty of non-zionist Jews among those 10 million. A non significant number of are even anti-zionists (particularly in the USA). There is also plenty of non-jewish zionists. It wouldn’t surprise me actually if non-jewish zionists actually outnumber jewish zionists by a significant margin, maybe even an order of magnitute. Then there is the deeply problematic aspect of assuming people’s politics based on their ethnicity. Yes there is a correlation, but correlation is not causation and offers no explaination. The 220 million Arabs and the 1.2 billion Muslims around the world probably have a similar opinion about Israel as most people around the world, I bet some of them—albeit a tiny minority—are even zionists. Your footnote where you explained this does not offer justification. This is a misuse of statistics at best. The simple explanation here is simply that people empathize with victims. Palestinians have been victims of colonialism for a long time, and are now victims of an ongoing genocide. The simple explanation here is that people follow the news and understand what is happening.
- edanm 2y ago
  > I’ve always had a problem with this statistic. It is at best an irrelevant obfuscation of more plausible explanations, the most plausible—as well as simplest—being the one that your parent offered. You think the world feels this way because of the "vast atrocities" committed by Israel. The problem with this is that there are far, far worse atrocities all over the world, to which no one pays anywhere near this kind of attention. The Syrian civil war found 300,000 civilians killed, an order of magnitude more than in the Gaza war. Since WW2, there have been, I believe, 100 million refugees of ethnic cleansing worldwide. The Uyghurs in China being a recent example of persecution of an ethnic minority, allegedly far worse than anything Israel does. And if apartheid is what we're talking about - worth mentioning that Palestinians have very few rights in almost every ME country that they are in. Now let's be clear - I'm not trying to "whatboutism" here - how Palestinians are treated elsewhere, and the existence of other bad things, does not and should not absolve Israel of anything bad it is doing. But if your belief is that the world thinks badly of Israel because of what it's doing specifically, but there are 100 things that are far worse by almost any metric happening all the time that few people pay attention to - I think you need to reevaluate the real reason here. If you think the UN putting out more resolutions against Israel than all other countries combined makes sense by the numbers - then you are just ignorant of what is happening all over the world.

by edanm 2y ago

hbt 2y ago

Though global populations show a larger anti-Israel sentiment, Western media and internet forums don't reflect this balance. Western media often aligns with Israeli perspectives due to strategic alliances, lobbying influence, and media ownership dynamics, framing Israel’s actions as defensive while sidelining broader Arab or Palestinian views. Online, pro-Israel narratives are reinforced by organized digital campaigns and moderation practices that shape public discourse. Meanwhile, pro-Palestinian voices lack comparable resources and organization in Western spaces, limiting their visibility. This creates a media and digital environment where Western audiences are exposed to narratives that don’t fully represent the global spectrum of perspectives.

edanm 2y ago
> Though global populations show a larger anti-Israel sentiment, Western media and internet forums don't reflect this balance. I'm not sure you're right. Isn't this a bit hard to judge without first deciding what is true and what constitutes bias? I'm fairly certain we don't agree with on either of these. Most Israelis consider things like the BBC and the NYT to be biased against Israel. Are you sure they're wrong?
- meiraleal 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Asparagus7426 2y ago
    Yeah those monsters that you're imagining are a brainchild of your echo chamber.
  - zionistshill 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      Isn't it too shameless to create a fake named zionistshill?
  - edanm 2y ago
    That is not what most Israelis think. The fact that you so easily think this badly of an entire country speaks a lot about your own biased views.
- nielsbot 2y ago
  I’d say the media’s attitude towards Israel and Palestine is conveniently summarized in the Ta-Nehisi Coates interview with Tony Dokupil.
  - edanm 2y ago
    1. That's just one interview, I'm not sure it's actually representative. 2. Even if you think it is, that's just the US media specifically. I agree that they tend to be relatively pro-Israel, especially compared to other countries, but there are other countries. 3. If we accept that this is representative, can we also consider Ta-Nehisi Coates's book itself to be representative of the attitude of "intellectuals" in the US on Israel? As he himself said, he came into the topic biased against Israel, went to the West Bank to "study" the issue for 10 days only, chose not to talk to any Israeli at all to get any other side of the issue, and wrote what is likely to be the highest-selling book this year about the topic. Not exactly a great example of journalistic rigor, IMO.

cutler 2y ago

But Zionists have AIPAC and its equivalent in Europe and Australia.

runarberg 2y ago

I’ve always had a problem with this statistic. It is at best an irrelevant obfuscation of more plausible explanations, the most plausible—as well as simplest—being the one that your parent offered. There are plenty of non-zionist Jews among those 10 million. A non significant number of are even anti-zionists (particularly in the USA). There is also plenty of non-jewish zionists. It wouldn’t surprise me actually if non-jewish zionists actually outnumber jewish zionists by a significant margin, maybe even an order of magnitute. Then there is the deeply problematic aspect of assuming people’s politics based on their ethnicity. Yes there is a correlation, but correlation is not causation and offers no explaination. The 220 million Arabs and the 1.2 billion Muslims around the world probably have a similar opinion about Israel as most people around the world, I bet some of them—albeit a tiny minority—are even zionists. Your footnote where you explained this does not offer justification. This is a misuse of statistics at best. The simple explanation here is simply that people empathize with victims. Palestinians have been victims of colonialism for a long time, and are now victims of an ongoing genocide. The simple explanation here is that people follow the news and understand what is happening.

edanm 2y ago
> I’ve always had a problem with this statistic. It is at best an irrelevant obfuscation of more plausible explanations, the most plausible—as well as simplest—being the one that your parent offered. You think the world feels this way because of the "vast atrocities" committed by Israel. The problem with this is that there are far, far worse atrocities all over the world, to which no one pays anywhere near this kind of attention. The Syrian civil war found 300,000 civilians killed, an order of magnitude more than in the Gaza war. Since WW2, there have been, I believe, 100 million refugees of ethnic cleansing worldwide. The Uyghurs in China being a recent example of persecution of an ethnic minority, allegedly far worse than anything Israel does. And if apartheid is what we're talking about - worth mentioning that Palestinians have very few rights in almost every ME country that they are in. Now let's be clear - I'm not trying to "whatboutism" here - how Palestinians are treated elsewhere, and the existence of other bad things, does not and should not absolve Israel of anything bad it is doing. But if your belief is that the world thinks badly of Israel because of what it's doing specifically, but there are 100 things that are far worse by almost any metric happening all the time that few people pay attention to - I think you need to reevaluate the real reason here. If you think the UN putting out more resolutions against Israel than all other countries combined makes sense by the numbers - then you are just ignorant of what is happening all over the world.