4 ms·

You need to meet some lawyers who were never able to practice because of oversupply, or hopeful PhDs that found themselves trapped in the adjunct precariat. Th

by tivert 2y ago

You need to meet some lawyers who were never able to practice because of oversupply, or hopeful PhDs that found themselves trapped in the adjunct precariat. There's no good accomplished by letting people waste their time, money, and talent on training they won't be able to use; and which they are counting on using to support themselves.

throwup238 2y ago
I’ve got a family member who’s been an underpaid postdoc their entire professional career going on 30 years and another stuck in banking for a decade after a physics PhD. I’m intimately familiar with the reality. Neither of them regret their education or the effort they put in. There’s no good accomplished by restricting education and professional certification to artificially restrict supply. All it does is create perverse incentives and harm the public good.
- tivert 2y ago
  > I’m intimately familiar with the reality. Neither of them regret their education or the effort they put in. The people I know in similar situations regret their choices, or are at least are a little bitter. > There’s no good accomplished by restricting education and professional certification except to destroy peoples dreams for the sake of a lucky few. Let me put it this way: if their dreams are going to be destroyed, it's best to do that as soon a possible. Putting that off makes things worse, not better.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    Except you have no idea a priori who will succeed and who won’t. If your selection process happens before the certification process, you’ll just be selecting for other metrics, ones usually irrelevant to the actual field. That’s just bad policy. There are a ton of shitty doctors and entire geographic regions that are deprived of specialists because of this kind of nonsense. Your policy may help a few people but it harms all of society.
    - tivert 2y ago
      > Except you have no idea a priori who will succeed and who won’t. Sort of. In many areas it's possible to do a good-enough job of sorting out the people who will almost certainly succeed. It won't be perfect, but nothing is. If there are enough of those to fill a long and specialized training program to the point where actual needs are met, then you shouldn't be letting a bunch of extra "maybes" in too, because that just introduces bad outcomes at the end that could be avoided.
      - throwup238 2y ago
        Based on my experience with doctors medicine is not one of those fields. Residency is the final gauntlet that matters and that’s the part that’s artificially restricted. On the other hand, because of supply, finding a good lawyer just requires a bit of money, well within reach of the average person facing a criminal trial or some civil dispute. Finding a good doctor requires sitting on waitlists for months (if you’re lucky enough to find one taking new patients) unless you have enough money to afford a concierge service, which the vast majority of people cannot afford. I’ve had bad concierge doctors but I’ve never had a shitty lawyer paying that kind of money. I mean really, where do we stop? There’s many more English literature graduates than jobs. Same with ____ studies and just about every other humanities degree. Do we restrict those too? How about higher education altogether? There’s an important debate to be had about government financing and the non-dischargeability of loans and all its effects, but restricting education based on job supply is just harmful to societies on so many levels. This is a two way street. Everybody needs medical care. Almost everyone is going to need legal advice in their lives. Depriving them of competent care and representation does far more harm than limiting supply would save. Failed medical students don’t die from the ordeal, but patients do. The washout rate for A&P aircraft mechanics is on the order of 75%. Imagine if healthcare were as reliable as airplanes (though there’s a shortage there too).
        tivert 2y ago
        > Based on my experience with doctors medicine is not one of those fields. Residency is the final gauntlet that matters and that’s the part that’s artificially restricted. You're getting the basic facts wrong. As least in the US, the restriction is acceptance to medical school. Part of the reasoning is they don't want to accept anyone who they think will fail years down the line, because that's bad for everyone (you, me, the failed student, and the teachers who aren't in it for the $$$). There's a surplus of residency slots (overall), because otherwise no foreign-trained doctors would ever be able to practice here. Lots of foreign-trained doctors practice here. My position is they need to increase medical school admissions (and residency slots), but not throw the doors wide open to all comers. The slots need to be managed such that anyone who gets can complete the program and will have a job waiting for them that pays commensurate with the amount of training they receive, but probably much less than many doctors get now. > I mean really, where do we stop? There’s many more English literature graduates than jobs. Same with ____ studies and just about every other humanities degree. Yes. What's happening with English literature graduates (at least on the PhD level) is an exploitative travesty. > ...but restricting education based on job supply is just harmful to societies on so many levels. I disagree. It's harmful to string people along with false hope, only to slam the door in their face at the end. It's harmful for society for people to waste time on a job training program (which is what medical education really is) for a job they'll never get. There needs to be a distinction made between general education and job training. Unless you're independently wealthy, specialized formal education needs to perform both functions. > The washout rate for A&P aircraft mechanics is on the order of 75%. Aircraft mechanic school is about 18-24 months (https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/how-long-is-aircraft-mechanic-school https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/how-long-...), and costs a few tens of thousands of dollars. That's not comparable, at all. > Imagine if healthcare were as reliable as airplanes (though there’s a shortage there too). Sure imagine that, but people aren't manufactured products. Not a valid comparison.
- kelnos 2y ago
  I don't think you can generalize attitudes based on the experiences of two people you know.
lukan 2y ago
But there is good, in letting people wait 6 months for important medical issues?
- tivert 2y ago
  You misunderstand my position. I am not arguing for the status quo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41947148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41947148. What I'm arguing against is a reactionary over-correction.

by tivert 2y ago

throwup238 2y ago

I’ve got a family member who’s been an underpaid postdoc their entire professional career going on 30 years and another stuck in banking for a decade after a physics PhD. I’m intimately familiar with the reality. Neither of them regret their education or the effort they put in. There’s no good accomplished by restricting education and professional certification to artificially restrict supply. All it does is create perverse incentives and harm the public good.

tivert 2y ago
> I’m intimately familiar with the reality. Neither of them regret their education or the effort they put in. The people I know in similar situations regret their choices, or are at least are a little bitter. > There’s no good accomplished by restricting education and professional certification except to destroy peoples dreams for the sake of a lucky few. Let me put it this way: if their dreams are going to be destroyed, it's best to do that as soon a possible. Putting that off makes things worse, not better.
- throwup238 2y ago
  Except you have no idea a priori who will succeed and who won’t. If your selection process happens before the certification process, you’ll just be selecting for other metrics, ones usually irrelevant to the actual field. That’s just bad policy. There are a ton of shitty doctors and entire geographic regions that are deprived of specialists because of this kind of nonsense. Your policy may help a few people but it harms all of society.
  - tivert 2y ago
    > Except you have no idea a priori who will succeed and who won’t. Sort of. In many areas it's possible to do a good-enough job of sorting out the people who will almost certainly succeed. It won't be perfect, but nothing is. If there are enough of those to fill a long and specialized training program to the point where actual needs are met, then you shouldn't be letting a bunch of extra "maybes" in too, because that just introduces bad outcomes at the end that could be avoided.
    - throwup238 2y ago
      Based on my experience with doctors medicine is not one of those fields. Residency is the final gauntlet that matters and that’s the part that’s artificially restricted. On the other hand, because of supply, finding a good lawyer just requires a bit of money, well within reach of the average person facing a criminal trial or some civil dispute. Finding a good doctor requires sitting on waitlists for months (if you’re lucky enough to find one taking new patients) unless you have enough money to afford a concierge service, which the vast majority of people cannot afford. I’ve had bad concierge doctors but I’ve never had a shitty lawyer paying that kind of money. I mean really, where do we stop? There’s many more English literature graduates than jobs. Same with ____ studies and just about every other humanities degree. Do we restrict those too? How about higher education altogether? There’s an important debate to be had about government financing and the non-dischargeability of loans and all its effects, but restricting education based on job supply is just harmful to societies on so many levels. This is a two way street. Everybody needs medical care. Almost everyone is going to need legal advice in their lives. Depriving them of competent care and representation does far more harm than limiting supply would save. Failed medical students don’t die from the ordeal, but patients do. The washout rate for A&P aircraft mechanics is on the order of 75%. Imagine if healthcare were as reliable as airplanes (though there’s a shortage there too).
      - tivert 2y ago
        > Based on my experience with doctors medicine is not one of those fields. Residency is the final gauntlet that matters and that’s the part that’s artificially restricted. You're getting the basic facts wrong. As least in the US, the restriction is acceptance to medical school. Part of the reasoning is they don't want to accept anyone who they think will fail years down the line, because that's bad for everyone (you, me, the failed student, and the teachers who aren't in it for the $$$). There's a surplus of residency slots (overall), because otherwise no foreign-trained doctors would ever be able to practice here. Lots of foreign-trained doctors practice here. My position is they need to increase medical school admissions (and residency slots), but not throw the doors wide open to all comers. The slots need to be managed such that anyone who gets can complete the program and will have a job waiting for them that pays commensurate with the amount of training they receive, but probably much less than many doctors get now. > I mean really, where do we stop? There’s many more English literature graduates than jobs. Same with ____ studies and just about every other humanities degree. Yes. What's happening with English literature graduates (at least on the PhD level) is an exploitative travesty. > ...but restricting education based on job supply is just harmful to societies on so many levels. I disagree. It's harmful to string people along with false hope, only to slam the door in their face at the end. It's harmful for society for people to waste time on a job training program (which is what medical education really is) for a job they'll never get. There needs to be a distinction made between general education and job training. Unless you're independently wealthy, specialized formal education needs to perform both functions. > The washout rate for A&P aircraft mechanics is on the order of 75%. Aircraft mechanic school is about 18-24 months (https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/how-long-is-aircraft-mechanic-school https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/how-long-...), and costs a few tens of thousands of dollars. That's not comparable, at all. > Imagine if healthcare were as reliable as airplanes (though there’s a shortage there too). Sure imagine that, but people aren't manufactured products. Not a valid comparison.
kelnos 2y ago
I don't think you can generalize attitudes based on the experiences of two people you know.

lukan 2y ago

But there is good, in letting people wait 6 months for important medical issues?

tivert 2y ago
You misunderstand my position. I am not arguing for the status quo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41947148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41947148. What I'm arguing against is a reactionary over-correction.