4 ms·

"Previous studies have reported differences between males and females in toy choice; that is, girls generally favor toys such as soft dolls, whereas boys genera

by avazhi 2y ago

"Previous studies have reported differences between males and females in toy choice; that is, girls generally favor toys such as soft dolls, whereas boys generally favor construction and transportation toys (e.g., Connor and Serbin, 1977; Liss, 1981; Pasterski et al., 2005; Roopnarine, 1986)." The dolls vs construction toys preference holds for both human children and monkeys (the latter of which obviously have no socialising reason to prefer one over the other for reasons of sex). The implication is that girls are innately more caring and social, while boys are more adventurous, independent, and prone to risk taking. These differences are pretty obvious to most people, and to - for example - the insurance industry, which charges a much higher premium for a 16 year old boy's car insurance than for a 16 year old girl's car insurance. By your logic, sex differences in motor vehicle accidents among teenagers must be explicable by reason of something other than sex, which would make you a very rich person if you could prove it.

defrost 2y ago
Selective quoting, ignoring other studies, commentary about toy presentation and the actual big picture comment: Therefore, one key difference between males and females in these studies is that males actually show a toy preference while females do not! But sure, you read the bit that backs your bias. > By your logic, Not my logic, I didn't author the study that you linked. > sex differences in motor vehicle accidents among teenagers must be explicable by reason of something other than sex, That doesn't follow from the quote. Sex differences in motor vehicle accidents among teenagers skew heavily male along with other not fully thought through risk taking look at me behaviours.
- avazhi 2y ago
  "Sex differences in motor vehicle accidents among teenagers skew heavily male along with other not fully thought through risk taking look at me behaviours." I'm glad you agree with me that certain male behaviours and thought processes are unique to males, implying there are cognitive and behavioural differences between males and females which exist as a function of sex. "Therefore, one key difference between males and females in these studies is that males actually show a toy preference while females do not!" This is further evidence - which you've adduced multiple times now - that innate differences between males and females exist (in this case, we have a difference in the existence of toy preferences as a function solely of sex). Now that we agree about this, you can see why one might reasonably conclude that boys, as a function of being boys, prefer certain activities and topics over others (and, mutatis mutandis, girls). I have nothing further to add.
  - defrost 2y ago
    > boys, as a function of being boys, prefer certain activities and topics over others. As per the aticle this includes leering, drink spiking, date rape, etc. And, fails to address why women avoid male heavy domains despite no evidence that should they dive in they'd be any worse than boys. > I have nothing further to add. You've studiously avoided the innate bad behaviour aspects over several comments now.
    - avazhi 2y ago
      My apologies. I'm more than happy to admit that men exhibit 'innate bad behaviour' more often than women do. The fact that they do so is a function of them being men, and men and women are very different, as we've seen. I suppose you think that by admitting this, I must then admit that women are scared off by such 'innate bad behaviour' and so don't go into STEM fields. But once again the evidence is that the sex differences are significant from at least the time infants begin playing with toys and that they are not functions of human culture or learned social behaviour. Or are you suggesting that 1 year old infants are capable of making sex-based inferences? Maybe that monkey infants have divined the intricacies of human gender norms? Those differences in behaviours based on sex are conserved across a range of primate species, as we've seen. If the cognitive and behavioural differences arise before girls (or infant female monkeys) have ever been exposed to those big bad mean boys and their bad behaviours, then naturally you can't blame women being underrepresented in STEM fields on the boys, and you'll have to look for other (antecedent) causes. As we've seen, those cognitive and behavioural differences DO arise far earlier than you can explain based on some learned response to male behaviour. The differences can only be explained by the genetic distinctions between the two sexes. I wasn't 'studiously' avoiding anything, it's just that bad male behaviours are completely irrelevant.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    Wait of all things why do you take “look at me behavior” as something that must be based on innate differences? Being a social phenomenon in itself, wouldn’t it be completely reasonable to blame this on different socialization? I also want to nitpick your language because I think it implies something about your worldview. You said that “certain male behaviors and thought processes are unique to males,” key word there being unique. Given the broad crossover between the sexes in physiology (albeit when examining rare cases), we should, imo, expect absolutely nothing to be a uniquely male/female thought process, just one more likely to be found in one sex than the other. The article provides no argument for uniqueness. To me this seems a very important distinction because the existence of uniquely sexed psychological behavior could be used to justify all manner of political ideas that a higher probability of finding said behavior could not. Just to be clear, I make no claims about the argument that large populations will exhibit sex-based skews in behavior, just that this is entirely probabilistic and many, many outliers will exist.

by avazhi 2y ago

defrost 2y ago

Selective quoting, ignoring other studies, commentary about toy presentation and the actual big picture comment: Therefore, one key difference between males and females in these studies is that males actually show a toy preference while females do not! But sure, you read the bit that backs your bias. > By your logic, Not my logic, I didn't author the study that you linked. > sex differences in motor vehicle accidents among teenagers must be explicable by reason of something other than sex, That doesn't follow from the quote. Sex differences in motor vehicle accidents among teenagers skew heavily male along with other not fully thought through risk taking look at me behaviours.

avazhi 2y ago
"Sex differences in motor vehicle accidents among teenagers skew heavily male along with other not fully thought through risk taking look at me behaviours." I'm glad you agree with me that certain male behaviours and thought processes are unique to males, implying there are cognitive and behavioural differences between males and females which exist as a function of sex. "Therefore, one key difference between males and females in these studies is that males actually show a toy preference while females do not!" This is further evidence - which you've adduced multiple times now - that innate differences between males and females exist (in this case, we have a difference in the existence of toy preferences as a function solely of sex). Now that we agree about this, you can see why one might reasonably conclude that boys, as a function of being boys, prefer certain activities and topics over others (and, mutatis mutandis, girls). I have nothing further to add.
- defrost 2y ago
  > boys, as a function of being boys, prefer certain activities and topics over others. As per the aticle this includes leering, drink spiking, date rape, etc. And, fails to address why women avoid male heavy domains despite no evidence that should they dive in they'd be any worse than boys. > I have nothing further to add. You've studiously avoided the innate bad behaviour aspects over several comments now.
  - avazhi 2y ago
    My apologies. I'm more than happy to admit that men exhibit 'innate bad behaviour' more often than women do. The fact that they do so is a function of them being men, and men and women are very different, as we've seen. I suppose you think that by admitting this, I must then admit that women are scared off by such 'innate bad behaviour' and so don't go into STEM fields. But once again the evidence is that the sex differences are significant from at least the time infants begin playing with toys and that they are not functions of human culture or learned social behaviour. Or are you suggesting that 1 year old infants are capable of making sex-based inferences? Maybe that monkey infants have divined the intricacies of human gender norms? Those differences in behaviours based on sex are conserved across a range of primate species, as we've seen. If the cognitive and behavioural differences arise before girls (or infant female monkeys) have ever been exposed to those big bad mean boys and their bad behaviours, then naturally you can't blame women being underrepresented in STEM fields on the boys, and you'll have to look for other (antecedent) causes. As we've seen, those cognitive and behavioural differences DO arise far earlier than you can explain based on some learned response to male behaviour. The differences can only be explained by the genetic distinctions between the two sexes. I wasn't 'studiously' avoiding anything, it's just that bad male behaviours are completely irrelevant.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  Wait of all things why do you take “look at me behavior” as something that must be based on innate differences? Being a social phenomenon in itself, wouldn’t it be completely reasonable to blame this on different socialization? I also want to nitpick your language because I think it implies something about your worldview. You said that “certain male behaviors and thought processes are unique to males,” key word there being unique. Given the broad crossover between the sexes in physiology (albeit when examining rare cases), we should, imo, expect absolutely nothing to be a uniquely male/female thought process, just one more likely to be found in one sex than the other. The article provides no argument for uniqueness. To me this seems a very important distinction because the existence of uniquely sexed psychological behavior could be used to justify all manner of political ideas that a higher probability of finding said behavior could not. Just to be clear, I make no claims about the argument that large populations will exhibit sex-based skews in behavior, just that this is entirely probabilistic and many, many outliers will exist.