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In all out war, all available production or very close to it gets repurposed for the war effort. Those or other new rationing limits would certainly come into p

by vasco 2y ago

In all out war, all available production or very close to it gets repurposed for the war effort. Those or other new rationing limits would certainly come into play when the US gets into a war that threatens survival instead of the run of the mill "make sure we keep production going in case we need it later" wars that we're used to. Maybe it'd be no new iPhone models due to semiconductor rationing or things like that but there's always limits.

liveoneggs 2y ago
WW3 is just the excuse they need to keep data caps!
adastra22 2y ago
Not the same limits though. Bacon was rationed because animal fat was turned into gunpowder. But the Haber-Bosch process is self-sustaining. There will be no shortage of gunpowder.
- ls612 2y ago
  In an all out war short of nuclear exchange it’s plausible fuel and electronics could be rationed but the USA produces so much food nowadays and even a huge military has pretty hard ceilings on food consumption it’s hard to see the food rationing (which was most impactful to ordinary people) returning.
  - adastra22 2y ago
    Food rationing in the USA wasn’t to ensure a supply of calories to troops, but to ensure that industrially useful foods (e.g. high nitrate fats) got recycled into military use. The development of synthetic gunpowder via the Haber-Bosch process, which fueled Germany through two world wars, but only became available to the allies after WW2, means this particular form of rationing is a thing of the past.
    - philipkglass 2y ago
      The fat was actually used to make glycerin, which could be nitrated to nitroglycerin: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/reluctantly-turning-bacon-into-bombs-during-world-war-ii/360298/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/reluctant... Nitroglycerin was used as a component of smokeless powder -- propellant for bullets, mortar shells, and artillery. The Haber-Bosch process was used by all belligerents in World War II. Germany was the only operator of the process during World War I, but it rapidly spread throughout the world between the wars.
      - adastra22 2y ago
        Thanks for the correction on glycerin. If I remember my history right, the Haber process spread through the world after WW1 for making ammonia, and from there known techniques were available for transforming it into saltpeter. But BASF / IG Farben continued to develop their high pressure chemistry to stay ahead of foreign competition, and the use of Haber-like processes to turn air into all kinds of war munitions was still limited to Germany until after WW2. A lot of the war restrictions would not have been necessary if they had access to IG Farben’s latest tech. For the USA at least. The UK was a different issue, as they were actively being bombed and therefore experienced direct shortages.
        philipkglass 2y ago
        the use of Haber-like processes to turn air into all kinds of war munitions was still limited to Germany until after WW2 The US and other countries also used synthetic Haber process ammonia to make nitric acid and explosives from it during World War II. Here's a 1946 report about American chemical plants and facilities built to support the war effort: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001108531 https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001108531 From pages 2 and 3 of the report: The Government has invested more than $200 million in 10 synthetic ammonia plants, having a combined design capacity of about 800,000 tons of fixed nitrogen per year. These include eight ordnance plants, of which six have been declared surplus, one Defense Plant Corporation plant and one belonging to the Tennessee Valley Authority. Four plants have facilities for producing ammonium nitrate solutions. The nitric acid facilities located in the explosives plants of (2), and the ammonium nitrate graining facilities found in the ammunition loading plants of of (1) have a definite relationship to the ammonia plants.
- vasco 2y ago
  > or other new rationing limits I did write this! Also you have no idea if there will be no shortage of gunpowder. Rationing gets applied where the shortages are, and the shortages are many times difficult to anticipate or predict. I get your point and agree it's more likely to be new items, but that's just a gut feeling. In reality shortages can happen on basic products that are easy to manufacture but which a country doesn't manufacture anymore, for example if it's not very profitable.
  - adastra22 2y ago
    The contribution of animal fat to gunpowder (it is surprising that there is a connection!) is the nitrate content. Essentially the compost waste is turned into fertilizer, and from there to high explosives. Nitrate is NO3. It is produced 100% from the air, by a process which is exothermic. So it’s (almost) free, at the margin, or would be if not for the need of pure input gasses. A Haber-Bosch plant is a factory the size of a city that produces all the fertilizer or explosives you’d ever want, using nothing but air, water, and electricity as input. We can confidently say that this particular shortage won’t be an issue anymore.

by vasco 2y ago

liveoneggs 2y ago

WW3 is just the excuse they need to keep data caps!

adastra22 2y ago

Not the same limits though. Bacon was rationed because animal fat was turned into gunpowder. But the Haber-Bosch process is self-sustaining. There will be no shortage of gunpowder.

ls612 2y ago
In an all out war short of nuclear exchange it’s plausible fuel and electronics could be rationed but the USA produces so much food nowadays and even a huge military has pretty hard ceilings on food consumption it’s hard to see the food rationing (which was most impactful to ordinary people) returning.
- adastra22 2y ago
  Food rationing in the USA wasn’t to ensure a supply of calories to troops, but to ensure that industrially useful foods (e.g. high nitrate fats) got recycled into military use. The development of synthetic gunpowder via the Haber-Bosch process, which fueled Germany through two world wars, but only became available to the allies after WW2, means this particular form of rationing is a thing of the past.
  - philipkglass 2y ago
    The fat was actually used to make glycerin, which could be nitrated to nitroglycerin: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/reluctantly-turning-bacon-into-bombs-during-world-war-ii/360298/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/reluctant... Nitroglycerin was used as a component of smokeless powder -- propellant for bullets, mortar shells, and artillery. The Haber-Bosch process was used by all belligerents in World War II. Germany was the only operator of the process during World War I, but it rapidly spread throughout the world between the wars.
    - adastra22 2y ago
      Thanks for the correction on glycerin. If I remember my history right, the Haber process spread through the world after WW1 for making ammonia, and from there known techniques were available for transforming it into saltpeter. But BASF / IG Farben continued to develop their high pressure chemistry to stay ahead of foreign competition, and the use of Haber-like processes to turn air into all kinds of war munitions was still limited to Germany until after WW2. A lot of the war restrictions would not have been necessary if they had access to IG Farben’s latest tech. For the USA at least. The UK was a different issue, as they were actively being bombed and therefore experienced direct shortages.
      - philipkglass 2y ago
        the use of Haber-like processes to turn air into all kinds of war munitions was still limited to Germany until after WW2 The US and other countries also used synthetic Haber process ammonia to make nitric acid and explosives from it during World War II. Here's a 1946 report about American chemical plants and facilities built to support the war effort: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001108531 https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001108531 From pages 2 and 3 of the report: The Government has invested more than $200 million in 10 synthetic ammonia plants, having a combined design capacity of about 800,000 tons of fixed nitrogen per year. These include eight ordnance plants, of which six have been declared surplus, one Defense Plant Corporation plant and one belonging to the Tennessee Valley Authority. Four plants have facilities for producing ammonium nitrate solutions. The nitric acid facilities located in the explosives plants of (2), and the ammonium nitrate graining facilities found in the ammunition loading plants of of (1) have a definite relationship to the ammonia plants.
vasco 2y ago
> or other new rationing limits I did write this! Also you have no idea if there will be no shortage of gunpowder. Rationing gets applied where the shortages are, and the shortages are many times difficult to anticipate or predict. I get your point and agree it's more likely to be new items, but that's just a gut feeling. In reality shortages can happen on basic products that are easy to manufacture but which a country doesn't manufacture anymore, for example if it's not very profitable.
- adastra22 2y ago
  The contribution of animal fat to gunpowder (it is surprising that there is a connection!) is the nitrate content. Essentially the compost waste is turned into fertilizer, and from there to high explosives. Nitrate is NO3. It is produced 100% from the air, by a process which is exothermic. So it’s (almost) free, at the margin, or would be if not for the need of pure input gasses. A Haber-Bosch plant is a factory the size of a city that produces all the fertilizer or explosives you’d ever want, using nothing but air, water, and electricity as input. We can confidently say that this particular shortage won’t be an issue anymore.