5 ms·

If Used Software Can Be Sold, Why Not Used eBooks?

21 points by mikecane 14y ago

bitwize 14y ago
Used software cannot be sold in the Banana Republic of the USA.
jknupp 14y ago
Because "everything digital" != "everything else digital". That argument is a very slippery slope, considering it can be applied both beneficially and harmfully (for whatever your definitions of "beneficial" and "harmful" are).
- kevhsu 14y ago
  slippery slope arguments are a fallacy :)
jbert 14y ago
Or, if used physical books can be sold, why not used eBooks?
- incongruity 14y ago
  Well, the obvious answer to that is the DRM and license attached to the ebook – which is exactly what makes the ruling in Germany so interesting, of course.
  - holri 14y ago
    It is a European courts ruling not a German one.
    - incongruity 14y ago
      Thanks for the correction – I had thought the geographical location of the court was Germany, hence my phrasing, but in going to double check it, it was a Germany company but the court was in Luxembourg... and yes, it was a EU court, I'm sorry if my statement seemed misleading/confused.
astrodust 14y ago
A digital copy of a movie or a book has zero resale value and doesn't cost a dime to manufacture, but most publishers insist on setting the price of this to nearly equivalent to the physical version. It's infuriating. If I buy a Blu-Ray disc for $10, I'm reasonably assured I can unload it used for $2 to $5 later on. I can also lend it to people. The digital HD copy I bought for the same price that's typically locked to an individual device has zero resale value. You can't purchase digital goods these days. At best you get a long-term rental agreement.
- travisp 14y ago
  I challenge your assertion that it "doesn't cost a dime to manufacture" an ebook unless you're trying to be overly literal and ignore all of the non "manufacturing" costs that go into ebooks. "To produce a quality eBook takes just as long and costs just as much as producing a quality paper book. Yes, you save some money on paper, printing, and binding. And you save some money on warehousing and shipping. But you incur other costs." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-zack/making-ebooks-is-harder-t_b_1610953.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-zack/making-ebooks-is-h... In fact the difference in price between many ebooks and the the print copies is often more than the cost of the physical book (which is usually less than a dollar).
  - wlesieutre 14y ago
    He's not saying it doesn't cost anything to produce, just that the incremental cost of "manufacturing" one digital copy of it is next to nothing. Sure, there's a fraction of a cent of bandwidth involved, but they could make a billion copies of an ebook for more or less the same cost as making the first one. This doesn't hold true for an optical disc, where the disc has to be physically manufactured, have its contents written, be put in a case, and then shipped (probably across an ocean) to be sold. One would like to think that since they're spending less to produce it, some of the savings would be passed on to the consumer. But I guess people are largely willing to pay the same price, so it just ends up being extra profits. The customer can't do much about the fact that a huge chunk of the price goes to inflated "delivery fees."
Kilimanjaro 14y ago
If it benefits BigCorps and BigWigs then that's the right answer. If it benefits the people, then that's the true answer.
larrik 14y ago
I'm sorry, but how on earth is a document (DRM-ed or not) the same thing as an app? An eBook is content in a certain format. An app is a program that does stuff with input. They are not the same. They aren't written the same, they aren't used the same (usually), and they aren't sold the same (usually). This is like saying that gun control laws should apply to lighters. I mean, they both are made of metal, they are both manufactured by humans, and they both make fire right? Same thing!
- ommunist 14y ago
  They are both goods. I should own what I paid for.
- jmduke 14y ago
  I'm not saying you're wrong, but: "An app is a program that does stuff with input." What? Says who? What input does my NYT app take, and how is it different than a table of contents?
- smokeyj 14y ago
  Gun control would make just as much sense as lighter control if you think about it. Lighters can burn down a forrest or a house.. software is like an ebook because it's copyrighted material written by authors trying to make a living. I write in c instead of English.
- dons 14y ago
  Apps are functions from 0 or more inputs to outputs. Books are functions of 0 inputs to output. They're zero-arity apps.
- Splines 14y ago
  It's not so simple. I have several "interactive book" applications on my iPhone. These have book-like elements (there is a story that can be read), but there are many other application-like elements to it also (you can touch things to hear noises, there are supplementary puzzles and coloring pages, the book can read to you, and I bought it on the app store). Where do these fall? Clearly my application is not just a collection of html and js. But at what point do you stop calling something an application and call it an ebook? Is a binary wrapper around the ebook enough to make it an application?
dglassan 14y ago
You're missing the most important point...you're not selling the used software...you're selling the used license, or the unique license key. If I uninstall adobe photoshop and sell you my license key, you can install the same version and activate it using the key that I sold you. Now I cannot re-activate my copy of photoshop because my key no longer works, it's already being used by you. There's one copy of the key...it cannot be reproduced. eBooks do not require license keys to read the book. You can essentially make a copy of the ebook and send it to me and we can both read the ebook (DRM issues can be a whole 'nother post here). The only way selling an ebook would work is if they required license keys that can be transfered around but not reproduced, and that would prevent me from reading my book after I've sold my license, my rights to read the book.
ommunist 14y ago
What's more interesting - can I legit share my private collection of ebooks I paid for? If physical libraries can - why cannot I run a small digital one. With no ads served.
- travisp 14y ago
  Libraries do not pay the same prices as individuals. In fact, they pay higher prices for ebooks for the license to lend them out. If you wish to enter into such an agreement with publishers as well there's nothing stopping you.
  - ommunist 14y ago
    Ah, ok. Then I would serve ads. How much more the library pay?
  - ommunist 14y ago
    This one is wicked. Lincolnshire public library lends self-destroying books. http://www.guardian.co.uk/government-computing-network/2011/apr/14/public-library-ebook-service-grows-cilip-lincolnshire http://www.guardian.co.uk/government-computing-network/2011/...

21 points by mikecane 14y ago

Used software cannot be sold in the Banana Republic of the USA.

Because "everything digital" != "everything else digital". That argument is a very slippery slope, considering it can be applied both beneficially and harmfully (for whatever your definitions of "beneficial" and "harmful" are).

kevhsu 14y ago
slippery slope arguments are a fallacy :)

jbert 14y ago

Or, if used physical books can be sold, why not used eBooks?

incongruity 14y ago
Well, the obvious answer to that is the DRM and license attached to the ebook – which is exactly what makes the ruling in Germany so interesting, of course.
- holri 14y ago
  It is a European courts ruling not a German one.
  - incongruity 14y ago
    Thanks for the correction – I had thought the geographical location of the court was Germany, hence my phrasing, but in going to double check it, it was a Germany company but the court was in Luxembourg... and yes, it was a EU court, I'm sorry if my statement seemed misleading/confused.

astrodust 14y ago

A digital copy of a movie or a book has zero resale value and doesn't cost a dime to manufacture, but most publishers insist on setting the price of this to nearly equivalent to the physical version. It's infuriating. If I buy a Blu-Ray disc for $10, I'm reasonably assured I can unload it used for $2 to $5 later on. I can also lend it to people. The digital HD copy I bought for the same price that's typically locked to an individual device has zero resale value. You can't purchase digital goods these days. At best you get a long-term rental agreement.

travisp 14y ago
I challenge your assertion that it "doesn't cost a dime to manufacture" an ebook unless you're trying to be overly literal and ignore all of the non "manufacturing" costs that go into ebooks. "To produce a quality eBook takes just as long and costs just as much as producing a quality paper book. Yes, you save some money on paper, printing, and binding. And you save some money on warehousing and shipping. But you incur other costs." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-zack/making-ebooks-is-harder-t_b_1610953.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-zack/making-ebooks-is-h... In fact the difference in price between many ebooks and the the print copies is often more than the cost of the physical book (which is usually less than a dollar).
- wlesieutre 14y ago
  He's not saying it doesn't cost anything to produce, just that the incremental cost of "manufacturing" one digital copy of it is next to nothing. Sure, there's a fraction of a cent of bandwidth involved, but they could make a billion copies of an ebook for more or less the same cost as making the first one. This doesn't hold true for an optical disc, where the disc has to be physically manufactured, have its contents written, be put in a case, and then shipped (probably across an ocean) to be sold. One would like to think that since they're spending less to produce it, some of the savings would be passed on to the consumer. But I guess people are largely willing to pay the same price, so it just ends up being extra profits. The customer can't do much about the fact that a huge chunk of the price goes to inflated "delivery fees."

Kilimanjaro 14y ago

If it benefits BigCorps and BigWigs then that's the right answer. If it benefits the people, then that's the true answer.

larrik 14y ago

I'm sorry, but how on earth is a document (DRM-ed or not) the same thing as an app? An eBook is content in a certain format. An app is a program that does stuff with input. They are not the same. They aren't written the same, they aren't used the same (usually), and they aren't sold the same (usually). This is like saying that gun control laws should apply to lighters. I mean, they both are made of metal, they are both manufactured by humans, and they both make fire right? Same thing!

ommunist 14y ago
They are both goods. I should own what I paid for.
jmduke 14y ago
I'm not saying you're wrong, but: "An app is a program that does stuff with input." What? Says who? What input does my NYT app take, and how is it different than a table of contents?
smokeyj 14y ago
Gun control would make just as much sense as lighter control if you think about it. Lighters can burn down a forrest or a house.. software is like an ebook because it's copyrighted material written by authors trying to make a living. I write in c instead of English.
dons 14y ago
Apps are functions from 0 or more inputs to outputs. Books are functions of 0 inputs to output. They're zero-arity apps.
Splines 14y ago
It's not so simple. I have several "interactive book" applications on my iPhone. These have book-like elements (there is a story that can be read), but there are many other application-like elements to it also (you can touch things to hear noises, there are supplementary puzzles and coloring pages, the book can read to you, and I bought it on the app store). Where do these fall? Clearly my application is not just a collection of html and js. But at what point do you stop calling something an application and call it an ebook? Is a binary wrapper around the ebook enough to make it an application?

dglassan 14y ago

You're missing the most important point...you're not selling the used software...you're selling the used license, or the unique license key. If I uninstall adobe photoshop and sell you my license key, you can install the same version and activate it using the key that I sold you. Now I cannot re-activate my copy of photoshop because my key no longer works, it's already being used by you. There's one copy of the key...it cannot be reproduced. eBooks do not require license keys to read the book. You can essentially make a copy of the ebook and send it to me and we can both read the ebook (DRM issues can be a whole 'nother post here). The only way selling an ebook would work is if they required license keys that can be transfered around but not reproduced, and that would prevent me from reading my book after I've sold my license, my rights to read the book.

ommunist 14y ago

What's more interesting - can I legit share my private collection of ebooks I paid for? If physical libraries can - why cannot I run a small digital one. With no ads served.

travisp 14y ago
Libraries do not pay the same prices as individuals. In fact, they pay higher prices for ebooks for the license to lend them out. If you wish to enter into such an agreement with publishers as well there's nothing stopping you.
- ommunist 14y ago
  Ah, ok. Then I would serve ads. How much more the library pay?
- ommunist 14y ago
  This one is wicked. Lincolnshire public library lends self-destroying books. http://www.guardian.co.uk/government-computing-network/2011/apr/14/public-library-ebook-service-grows-cilip-lincolnshire http://www.guardian.co.uk/government-computing-network/2011/...