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>You're telling me Apple is unresponsive to support requests from their developer ecosystem? Really? GET OUT OF TOWN! I don't believe it. This isn't something

>You're telling me Apple is unresponsive to support requests from their developer ecosystem? Really? GET OUT OF TOWN! I don't believe it. This isn't something that is exclusive to Apple though this has always been an issue with them even regarding security issues with OS X. >Despite all of the rightful moaning of iOS developers, for some reason they continue to flock to the Apple platform. They develop for iOS because that is where the money is though this isn't the issue. It isn't as if the Android browser doesn't have its fair share of bugs. >Apple will continue to treat their developers like second class citizens until there is a financial incentive to do otherwise. You're right. Apple puts the interests of their customers first (not trying to be smug here). The developers come second. The only time you do hear complaints that go unanswered for devs it is usually only answered when there's a public (consumer) interest regarding it. A good example of this is Phil Schiller replying to customer's email about the Rogue Amoeba situation. I'm certainly not defending Apple but this is a problem that has existed for as long as I've been interested in tech.

duiker101 14y ago
Wrong, Apple puts money before everything. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4193287 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4193287
- technoslut 14y ago
  I did click on the link and did read the article though it lacked virtually any detail. Of course Apple cares about money but they make their money by customers buying their hardware. They put their customers first because that is where they make their money. As a counterpoint, Apple refuses to pay employees on commission because Jobs didn't want them upselling to consumers because there is a less chance of them being a returning customer. It's the goal of every business to make money. It's how you go about it that tells the story.
  - alexqgb 14y ago
    Actually, the goal of a business is to create a customer.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      Yeah - customers who spend money.
      - alexqgb 14y ago
        Is there any other kind?
        chris_wot 14y ago
        Only by degrees.
    - alttab 14y ago
      From Apple's standpoint as a publicly traded company, their mandate is to maximize shareholder value.
      - jrockway 14y ago
        Their mandate is to do whatever their prospectus says they are going to do. As for maximizing shareholder value, I think they've done pretty well there. I don't care for their software that much, but in terms of running a publicly-traded corporation, they've done an excellent job.
    - ThePherocity 14y ago
      No, the goal is to make money. If a business can make money without customers, then it's still a successful business. (Though it may be a racket). Making a business with lots of customers, but no money, at best is called a startup... ;)
  - duiker101 14y ago
    what that article says is "Even if it Italy(and all UE) the law says the hardware provider must grant 2 years warranty, Apple does not care and gives only one, and asks for money if you want the second." Explain me how this is putting the customers before the money. Apple shows a nice face to the public but then does only what it's needed to get more money. proved by both this article and how they treat developers. If it wasn't for the developers that filled the appstore with content apple would be still years back. But apple doesn't care.
    - technoslut 14y ago
      You're pointing to an article that was very short and provided no detail. I had to go through the HN thread to see that it's more complicated than what you make it out to be but I also read a story by John Paczkowski regarding this: http://allthingsd.com/20120702/italy-accuses-apple-of-misrepresenting-warranty-options-threatens-to-kick-it-out/ http://allthingsd.com/20120702/italy-accuses-apple-of-misrep... I think you're trying to paint a picture from a certain perspective that doesn't contain the whole truth. I'm not saying that Apple isn't greedy as everyone else but I do believe your argument has flaws.
    - joering2 14y ago
      > If it wasn't for the developers that filled the appstore with content apple would be still years back. Plus, if it wasn't for jailbreakers and first Cydia not-native apps that Jobs hated and for a long time was against an idea of giving third-parties abilities to build so-called not-native apps, Apple would still not had their App Store and never grew to today's sizes.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - rimantas 14y ago
        Just take a look at the timeline: App Store was probably in the works when Jobs was still talking about web apps. Thinking that Cydia forced Apple to reconsider its policy is very naive.
  - mrich 14y ago
    Apple is not offering the warranty mandated by the law, so when the device breaks, the customer has to buy a new one. If that is what you get for paying a premium price for the latest Apple product then I have to say no, thanks.
    - incongruity 14y ago
      Apple is pretty well known for helping its customers even after the warranty period is up, from everything I've seen. Certainly not always, but enough so that they get more good press for it than most companies. So, even if they are as evil and plotting as you claim, they seem to be confused on how to be efficient and effective in implementing their evil plan.
      - mrich 14y ago
        I would hope they are not doing this on purpose. However, then it has to be incompetence or lazyness. I heard some european VP was recently let go by Cook, so perhaps he is already taking care of it. Anyway, there are some horror stories regarding the defective Nvidia GPUs where Apple denied repairs and said it was another problem - even though Nvidia fully paid the repair because it was their fault. http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/ http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-i...
    - lloeki 14y ago
      I live in France. Every single hardware device out there has one year warranty, with possibly optional paid extension from the reseller. Five second search example [0] shows "Garantie 1 an.". None of their manufacturer get any sort of bash, except Apple. [0] http://www.fnac.com/Console-Xbox-360-250-Go-Microsoft-Halo-Reach-Gears-of-War-2-Fable-3-3-mois-d-abonnement-gratuit-au-Xbox-Live-Gold/a4085718/w-4#bl=JEConsoles-Xbox-360BLO1 http://www.fnac.com/Console-Xbox-360-250-Go-Microsoft-Halo-R...
    - ThePherocity 14y ago
      I've had two iPhones, a motherboard on a MacBook Pro (which I spilt coke on, and told them I did) and a replaced keyboard on the White MacBook that cracked all replaced out of the warranty period. I thought Apple was over priced non-sense years ago, until I bought one thanks to a spending account from my employer. Now I find it hard to justify buying anything but.
  - ruswick 14y ago
    Still, making good products is a tactic, not a philosophy. Apple doesn't put the effort into making good products because they want to make people happy, they do it because that's what sells. Any notion that Apple has altruistic motives is absurd. All companies exist for one reason: to make as much money as possible. Apple is no exception.
- podperson 14y ago
  Apple wants money. Apple makes nice product I want to buy. Microsoft wants money. Microsoft makes a product that its customers (until recently, third party hardware manufacturers and enterprise IT) buy to put on their crappy products in the hope of selling them to me. To support their wafer thin margins, they rent out advertising space on the hardware they well. Google wants money. Google gives goods and services away and convinces its customers (advertisers) that they will be able to sell its users stuff that they see advertised when they use their free product or service running on some crappy product someone else sells them. Everyone is after money. It's called capitalism. When it works well it leads people to do things that make other people happier in pursuit of getting money. Apple is making money because they're better at capitalism than these other guys. For as long as it's existed, Apple has believed that the way to make money is to create products people -- actual end-users -- want to own and use, and for a long time this was successful but not as successful as making PC manufacturers happy, or making advertisers happy. Right now, it's working very well for Apple, and once they stopped doing stupid random half-arsed things they started making ridiculous amounts of money. Is Apple doing something illegal w.r.t. warranties in Italy? Who knows? (a) It's the register. (b) There's no telling if the warranty Apple is obliged to provide in Italy in any way resembles AppleCare. In general, Apple seems to handle "defects in manufacturing" very generously everywhere the world over. AppleCare covers you against all kinds of stuff that you'd be very lucky to get covered by warranty anywhere else. And if this Italian warranty policy is so all-pervasive, why do Apple's customers need to be told about it? "America is a vast conspiracy to make you happy." John Updike
drieddust 14y ago
Not true at all. Please read through their stance on requirement of antivirus on the machine in response to flashback Trojan [1]. Instead of arguing against or for Antivirus, they are blaming windows. " Do I need anti-virus software? Ah! The loaded question. That's up to you. To date, all of the Mac anti-virus software still checks primarily for Windows viruses. The anti-virus companies have literally stopped counting how many Windows viruses there are. The Flashback trojan didn't even qualify to be called a virus. Still, all Windows users run anti-virus software. The only growth opportunities for them are Macintosh and Android. Expect a hard sell. Nothing sells better than fear. My advice? Be fearless!" For hacker news audience ,who can take care of their own security, antivirus may just be snake oil but for clueless end user it is a big help. [1] https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-3271 https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-3271
- DigitalBison 14y ago
  As far as I can tell, that post you're quoting was written by a user totally unaffiliated with Apple. It's a pretty enormous stretch to call this "their stance on requirement of antivirus".
  - saurik 14y ago
    Here is an Apple commercial that cuts strait to their opinion on viruses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQb_Q8WRL_g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQb_Q8WRL_g .
    - comex 14y ago
      (...from 6 years ago.)
      - saurik 14y ago
        (if you can show me anywhere where Apple has made a public correction, I would find that interesting; otherwise, it is irrelevant when it is from...) (edit: in offline conversation with comex, he came up with an article from last week that implies a change in Apple's stance on this subject) http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/mac_viruses/ http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/mac_viruses/
greggman 14y ago
> It isn't as if the Android browser doesn't have its fair share of bugs Patches welcome
- dockd 14y ago
  Wouldn't most devs rather tackle their own defect backlog than spend their time repairing Android? I'd probably spend my time trying to work around the bug rather than submit a fix and wait for it to make it into production.
  - TheCapn 14y ago
    Difference being though is that you can submit a fix instead of having your report go to a private system in which you can never follow.

duiker101 14y ago

Wrong, Apple puts money before everything. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4193287 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4193287

technoslut 14y ago
I did click on the link and did read the article though it lacked virtually any detail. Of course Apple cares about money but they make their money by customers buying their hardware. They put their customers first because that is where they make their money. As a counterpoint, Apple refuses to pay employees on commission because Jobs didn't want them upselling to consumers because there is a less chance of them being a returning customer. It's the goal of every business to make money. It's how you go about it that tells the story.
- alexqgb 14y ago
  Actually, the goal of a business is to create a customer.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    Yeah - customers who spend money.
    - alexqgb 14y ago
      Is there any other kind?
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        Only by degrees.
  - alttab 14y ago
    From Apple's standpoint as a publicly traded company, their mandate is to maximize shareholder value.
    - jrockway 14y ago
      Their mandate is to do whatever their prospectus says they are going to do. As for maximizing shareholder value, I think they've done pretty well there. I don't care for their software that much, but in terms of running a publicly-traded corporation, they've done an excellent job.
  - ThePherocity 14y ago
    No, the goal is to make money. If a business can make money without customers, then it's still a successful business. (Though it may be a racket). Making a business with lots of customers, but no money, at best is called a startup... ;)
- duiker101 14y ago
  what that article says is "Even if it Italy(and all UE) the law says the hardware provider must grant 2 years warranty, Apple does not care and gives only one, and asks for money if you want the second." Explain me how this is putting the customers before the money. Apple shows a nice face to the public but then does only what it's needed to get more money. proved by both this article and how they treat developers. If it wasn't for the developers that filled the appstore with content apple would be still years back. But apple doesn't care.
  - technoslut 14y ago
    You're pointing to an article that was very short and provided no detail. I had to go through the HN thread to see that it's more complicated than what you make it out to be but I also read a story by John Paczkowski regarding this: http://allthingsd.com/20120702/italy-accuses-apple-of-misrepresenting-warranty-options-threatens-to-kick-it-out/ http://allthingsd.com/20120702/italy-accuses-apple-of-misrep... I think you're trying to paint a picture from a certain perspective that doesn't contain the whole truth. I'm not saying that Apple isn't greedy as everyone else but I do believe your argument has flaws.
  - joering2 14y ago
    > If it wasn't for the developers that filled the appstore with content apple would be still years back. Plus, if it wasn't for jailbreakers and first Cydia not-native apps that Jobs hated and for a long time was against an idea of giving third-parties abilities to build so-called not-native apps, Apple would still not had their App Store and never grew to today's sizes.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - rimantas 14y ago
      Just take a look at the timeline: App Store was probably in the works when Jobs was still talking about web apps. Thinking that Cydia forced Apple to reconsider its policy is very naive.
- mrich 14y ago
  Apple is not offering the warranty mandated by the law, so when the device breaks, the customer has to buy a new one. If that is what you get for paying a premium price for the latest Apple product then I have to say no, thanks.
  - incongruity 14y ago
    Apple is pretty well known for helping its customers even after the warranty period is up, from everything I've seen. Certainly not always, but enough so that they get more good press for it than most companies. So, even if they are as evil and plotting as you claim, they seem to be confused on how to be efficient and effective in implementing their evil plan.
    - mrich 14y ago
      I would hope they are not doing this on purpose. However, then it has to be incompetence or lazyness. I heard some european VP was recently let go by Cook, so perhaps he is already taking care of it. Anyway, there are some horror stories regarding the defective Nvidia GPUs where Apple denied repairs and said it was another problem - even though Nvidia fully paid the repair because it was their fault. http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/ http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-i...
  - lloeki 14y ago
    I live in France. Every single hardware device out there has one year warranty, with possibly optional paid extension from the reseller. Five second search example [0] shows "Garantie 1 an.". None of their manufacturer get any sort of bash, except Apple. [0] http://www.fnac.com/Console-Xbox-360-250-Go-Microsoft-Halo-Reach-Gears-of-War-2-Fable-3-3-mois-d-abonnement-gratuit-au-Xbox-Live-Gold/a4085718/w-4#bl=JEConsoles-Xbox-360BLO1 http://www.fnac.com/Console-Xbox-360-250-Go-Microsoft-Halo-R...
  - ThePherocity 14y ago
    I've had two iPhones, a motherboard on a MacBook Pro (which I spilt coke on, and told them I did) and a replaced keyboard on the White MacBook that cracked all replaced out of the warranty period. I thought Apple was over priced non-sense years ago, until I bought one thanks to a spending account from my employer. Now I find it hard to justify buying anything but.
- ruswick 14y ago
  Still, making good products is a tactic, not a philosophy. Apple doesn't put the effort into making good products because they want to make people happy, they do it because that's what sells. Any notion that Apple has altruistic motives is absurd. All companies exist for one reason: to make as much money as possible. Apple is no exception.
podperson 14y ago
Apple wants money. Apple makes nice product I want to buy. Microsoft wants money. Microsoft makes a product that its customers (until recently, third party hardware manufacturers and enterprise IT) buy to put on their crappy products in the hope of selling them to me. To support their wafer thin margins, they rent out advertising space on the hardware they well. Google wants money. Google gives goods and services away and convinces its customers (advertisers) that they will be able to sell its users stuff that they see advertised when they use their free product or service running on some crappy product someone else sells them. Everyone is after money. It's called capitalism. When it works well it leads people to do things that make other people happier in pursuit of getting money. Apple is making money because they're better at capitalism than these other guys. For as long as it's existed, Apple has believed that the way to make money is to create products people -- actual end-users -- want to own and use, and for a long time this was successful but not as successful as making PC manufacturers happy, or making advertisers happy. Right now, it's working very well for Apple, and once they stopped doing stupid random half-arsed things they started making ridiculous amounts of money. Is Apple doing something illegal w.r.t. warranties in Italy? Who knows? (a) It's the register. (b) There's no telling if the warranty Apple is obliged to provide in Italy in any way resembles AppleCare. In general, Apple seems to handle "defects in manufacturing" very generously everywhere the world over. AppleCare covers you against all kinds of stuff that you'd be very lucky to get covered by warranty anywhere else. And if this Italian warranty policy is so all-pervasive, why do Apple's customers need to be told about it? "America is a vast conspiracy to make you happy." John Updike

drieddust 14y ago

Not true at all. Please read through their stance on requirement of antivirus on the machine in response to flashback Trojan [1]. Instead of arguing against or for Antivirus, they are blaming windows. " Do I need anti-virus software? Ah! The loaded question. That's up to you. To date, all of the Mac anti-virus software still checks primarily for Windows viruses. The anti-virus companies have literally stopped counting how many Windows viruses there are. The Flashback trojan didn't even qualify to be called a virus. Still, all Windows users run anti-virus software. The only growth opportunities for them are Macintosh and Android. Expect a hard sell. Nothing sells better than fear. My advice? Be fearless!" For hacker news audience ,who can take care of their own security, antivirus may just be snake oil but for clueless end user it is a big help. [1] https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-3271 https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-3271

DigitalBison 14y ago
As far as I can tell, that post you're quoting was written by a user totally unaffiliated with Apple. It's a pretty enormous stretch to call this "their stance on requirement of antivirus".
- saurik 14y ago
  Here is an Apple commercial that cuts strait to their opinion on viruses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQb_Q8WRL_g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQb_Q8WRL_g .
  - comex 14y ago
    (...from 6 years ago.)
    - saurik 14y ago
      (if you can show me anywhere where Apple has made a public correction, I would find that interesting; otherwise, it is irrelevant when it is from...) (edit: in offline conversation with comex, he came up with an article from last week that implies a change in Apple's stance on this subject) http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/mac_viruses/ http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/mac_viruses/

greggman 14y ago

> It isn't as if the Android browser doesn't have its fair share of bugs Patches welcome

dockd 14y ago
Wouldn't most devs rather tackle their own defect backlog than spend their time repairing Android? I'd probably spend my time trying to work around the bug rather than submit a fix and wait for it to make it into production.
- TheCapn 14y ago
  Difference being though is that you can submit a fix instead of having your report go to a private system in which you can never follow.