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I find the idea that late Bronze age swords being designed around formalized fencing grips a somewhat preposterous assumption. While I have no doubts that thes

I find the idea that late Bronze age swords being designed around formalized fencing grips a somewhat preposterous assumption. While I have no doubts that these were luxury items for a sophisticated people, these were simpler swords that long preceded all ideas of sword dueling and even any practiced martial art in these regions by about 3000 years. These were rare and simple weapons of opportunity. Most swords would be used against people who didn't have a sword, and maybe had never seen one. There would have been no more formalized training or thought into using one any more than you would hold a stun gun if handed one for the first time.

kybernetikos 2y ago
I'm not going to argue from history because I don't know it, but I know that humans love tools, they love tools so much that they'll often put more effort into acquiring them and talking about them than they do using them for their intended purpose. I'd be quite surprised if objects this precious didn't also have a mini industry of people talking about them, selling them and telling you how to use them properly, even in the bronze age. The bronze age spanned thousands of years. We went from computers to agile consultants in much less time.
jjk166 2y ago
Our modern formalized fencing grips were designed with the same purpose in mind - to allow someone to easily grip and move a metal stick. Assuming the anatomy of the ancients was roughly the same, and their goals were the same, they would likely come to the same conclusions about what was a comfortable grip. These peoples lives depended on their swords and their ability to wield them, particularly in the situations where the other person also had a sword and was familiar with them. In the bronze age swords were quite expensive, roughly equivalent to a car today - something most people could buy but a significant purchase for anyone who wasn't rich. Beyond being valuable tools, they were prized as works of art, often featuring elaborate engravings. In many societies swords would be passed on through generations, while in others they'd be among the most prominent treasures a person would be buried with. They undoubtedly put a great deal of thought into both their design and use.
- legitster 2y ago
  > Our modern formalized fencing grips were designed with the same purpose in mind - to allow someone to easily grip and move a metal stick Fencing grips were developed with the primary purpose of getting a long reach in a 1 on 1 duel with another swordsman in an era when both were ubiquitous. Certainly a bronze-age sword was a state-of-the-art invention for it's time and commanded prestige. But I don't think it's safe to assume they would have adopted a 15th century sword technique. They would never have needed to! They had the best, easiest-to-use weapon around. To your point, I don't think a great Lord of the era would commission one of these swords, with a handle so clearly designed to be held at a 45-degree angle, just to hold it in an awkward angle or direction with the mushroom pommel dangling uselessly.
  - jjk166 2y ago
    Fencing refers to multiple different styles of sword fighting. Even in the most restrictive sense - the specific modern sport of fencing - there are 3 styles, including the saber which is held at a 45 degree angle. In the article they are using fencing more broadly to refer to a wide variety of martial arts that involve swords.

kybernetikos 2y ago

I'm not going to argue from history because I don't know it, but I know that humans love tools, they love tools so much that they'll often put more effort into acquiring them and talking about them than they do using them for their intended purpose. I'd be quite surprised if objects this precious didn't also have a mini industry of people talking about them, selling them and telling you how to use them properly, even in the bronze age. The bronze age spanned thousands of years. We went from computers to agile consultants in much less time.

jjk166 2y ago

Our modern formalized fencing grips were designed with the same purpose in mind - to allow someone to easily grip and move a metal stick. Assuming the anatomy of the ancients was roughly the same, and their goals were the same, they would likely come to the same conclusions about what was a comfortable grip. These peoples lives depended on their swords and their ability to wield them, particularly in the situations where the other person also had a sword and was familiar with them. In the bronze age swords were quite expensive, roughly equivalent to a car today - something most people could buy but a significant purchase for anyone who wasn't rich. Beyond being valuable tools, they were prized as works of art, often featuring elaborate engravings. In many societies swords would be passed on through generations, while in others they'd be among the most prominent treasures a person would be buried with. They undoubtedly put a great deal of thought into both their design and use.

legitster 2y ago
> Our modern formalized fencing grips were designed with the same purpose in mind - to allow someone to easily grip and move a metal stick Fencing grips were developed with the primary purpose of getting a long reach in a 1 on 1 duel with another swordsman in an era when both were ubiquitous. Certainly a bronze-age sword was a state-of-the-art invention for it's time and commanded prestige. But I don't think it's safe to assume they would have adopted a 15th century sword technique. They would never have needed to! They had the best, easiest-to-use weapon around. To your point, I don't think a great Lord of the era would commission one of these swords, with a handle so clearly designed to be held at a 45-degree angle, just to hold it in an awkward angle or direction with the mushroom pommel dangling uselessly.
- jjk166 2y ago
  Fencing refers to multiple different styles of sword fighting. Even in the most restrictive sense - the specific modern sport of fencing - there are 3 styles, including the saber which is held at a 45 degree angle. In the article they are using fencing more broadly to refer to a wide variety of martial arts that involve swords.