4 ms·

I get kind of annoyed when people look at the internet or social media and act like it causes all these problems. People have always been terrible [1], we just

I get kind of annoyed when people look at the internet or social media and act like it causes all these problems. People have always been terrible [1], we just didn't have the ability to see what most people were thinking or saying. I used to think that the internet radicalized my idiot grandmother in 2016 and made her hyper-racist and part of the psychotic wing of the conservative party, until I saw a home video where I saw her very casually use the N word [2] where I realized that she's always been a nut. The internet made her more visibly a nut but I don't think it actually changed anything about her. [1] By any definition; there's 8 billion of us, meaning there are probably millions of people that do stuff that you think is awful, no matter what it is. [2] In 1997, well after using such a word was considered unacceptable in most places.

tarkin2 2y ago
It's not that the internet created new behavioural problems, but that intensified old problems.
- tombert 2y ago
  I know that's what everyone says, what I'm saying is that I'm not sure I agree. I mostly think it just made old problems more visible. At the risk of upsetting Godwin, if you look at the rise to power in Nazi Germany, Hitler was able to appeal to people's inner prejudices and susceptibility to demagoguery and commit one of the worst, if not the worst, atrocities in human history. Hitler didn't post radical content on Facebook or Twitter or Reddit, he just spoke publicly about stuff.
  - MisterTea 2y ago
    > Hitler didn't post radical content on Facebook or Twitter or Reddit, he just spoke publicly about stuff. That's what social media allows random people to do much more easily: speak publicly about stuff. Before that you'd have to build a reputation and following in meat space which takes a lot of time and effort. Now it's just a like and share button. I'm sure Hitler would have totally loved using Twitter, Facebook and the like.
    - jemmyw 2y ago
      But then Hitler would have to compete with a million other Hitlers
      - croes 2y ago
        Or they simply join forces
    - eesmith 2y ago
      > That's what social media allows random people to do much more easily: speak publicly about stuff. GeoCities let you speak publicly about stuff, so that alone is an incomplete characterization. What nearly all social media does is preferentially bias message propagation to boost engagement in order to enhance advertising sales and biases of its owner(s). This tends to amplify drama and stoke rivalry.
- entropicdrifter 2y ago
  It definitely gives people super-specific social niches in which to nurture their worst habits and views in a way that's not just unchallenged but even encouraged. People who are chronically online tend to live in extremely insulated social bubbles. When you go out into the real world for your socialization time you tend to become less radicalized because you're more likely to encounter decent human beings with differing views from yours and your worldview becomes broader for it. Most online communities actively discourage giving others the benefit of the doubt and instead prefer dismissing community-consensus-defying views with either overly harsh labels or extreme skepticism ("explain why you're not a troll for disagreeing with me politely", basically). So in other words, I guess what I'm saying is that the internet seems to have given rise to a new wave of what are effectively cults. They encourage extreme views and extreme rejection of those with outside perspectives. Then when you conform to those views and behaviors, you tend to become socially isolated IRL, which leads to emotional dependence on the radical online community. It's a cycle of bullying that's extremely cult-like, and it's extremely common online.
surgical_fire 2y ago
Before the internet, if you were an insufferable moron, your social circle would likely curb your behavior to a more acceptable level. Now you find communities of like-minded insufferable morons, giving support and cheering each other, and no one to say "cut it out, don't be such an imbecile".
- tombert 2y ago
  Everyone says that, but there were plenty of insufferable morons before the internet. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson basically made an entire career out of validating the most insufferable people out in America, and for the majority of their careers the internet wasn't involved at all. I really don't think people of today are more insufferable than before the internet. We know about a lot more idiots now than we used to, but that's subtly different.
elpocko 2y ago
Your grandmother didn't change; the world around her, the world she was brought up in, changed. She's not a nut simply because she refused to conform. She's a product of her environment just like you, and when she got older, her willingness to adapt to an ever-changing environment waned. It will happen to you, too.
- tombert 2y ago
  No, she's definitely a nut. I really hate that people that are sufficiently old enough just get a pass from a large part of society because "they're a product of their time". Well they're living in my time now, and I will judge them by the standards of my time. I think it's wrong to decline a person from a job or from a loan just because they're old, but if that's the standard then it seems to me that I should judge them like I would anyone else. If my grandmother wants to insult Mexicans and call them all "lazy and living off the system" in front of my Mexican immigrant wife [1], she's of course allowed to say that but I don't feel even a modicum of guilt for calling her a nut or an idiot in the process. Whether or not it happens to me is irrelevant. I would hope that future generations hold me to the standard of their time while they and I are living concurrently. [1] Actual quote.
  - ravenstine 2y ago
    Where do you draw the line? Are most people from the near past a "nut" in some respect? Your case is more extreme, but pretty much all of my elders are nuts in one way or another in regards to obsolete beliefs. My own parents, for instance, who are otherwise intelligent people, still believe minimum wage should be $6.75 even though they also believe inflation has made groceries too expensive. Are they just stuck in the past or are they nutty?
    - tombert 2y ago
      I don't have a strictly defined "line", though overt racism is pretty much always past it. If you're alive and not in a mental institution today, then I don't feel bad judging you by the same standards as everyone else. If an 80 year old says something racist or sexist, I really don't care if that stuff was acceptable when they were 15: it's not acceptable now. Based on what you described of your parents, I wouldn't call them nuts just based on that. ETA: I'd like to clarify a bit; even though I don't agree with your parents in this example, and I think they're wrong, being wrong doesn't imply "nut". I guess I view it as a matter of degree. I think overt racism is way worse than being a bit wrong about what minimum wage should be, and while, as I said, I don't have a strict line, the line does more or less exist.
ryandrake 2y ago
The Internet has been around for decades, though, and your grandmother probably started using it long before 2016. I'm thinking something else might have happened around 2016... something or someone that could have emboldened hyper-racist nutters and encouraged them to voice their nuttery in public. Carrying that content way outside the audience of a 1997 home video. I can't really put my finger on what it might have been, though.
- tombert 2y ago
  My grandmother didn't buy a computer until 2005, and didn't have the internet until around 2011.
- vijay_erramilli 2y ago
  A new, and foul type of orange came into prominence, is what happened.
pier25 2y ago
> we just didn't have the ability to see what most people were thinking or saying I agree but the internet brought a new set of behaviors that weren't possible before. For example, communicating to millions or even billions of people. Our brain developed when human groups were relatively small and it's not ready for the social scale that we're operating now through the internet.
croes 2y ago
Social media makes it easy to find people who think alike. This reduces the inhibitions caused by social pressure, which normally dampens extreme behavior
JohnFen 2y ago
> I get kind of annoyed when people look at the internet or social media and act like it causes all these problems. I don't think it causes these problems. It seems very clear to me that it amplifies them, though.
bulatox 2y ago
[dead]
- tombert 2y ago
  I am sorry if there was any confusion, but my goal was not to be nice. I think my grandmother is exceedingly stupid. “Idiot” is a very common insult to call someone very stupid. My goal is to be mean in this case. “Nut” is less defensible but I stand by it, and I don’t actually believe you’re offended by it.
  - bulatox 2y ago
    Using 'n-t' as an insult perpetuates pseudoscientific mental health labels created to used to institutionalize women (particularly women of color) for simply speaking up or challenging authority. 'i--t' is a weaponized clinical term from the eugenics movement of the early 20th century, where IQ tests were used to justify forced sterilization of BIPOC individuals and women with mental health conditions being disproportionately targeted. I know your goal is to "be mean" to a relative who isn't here(?), but it actually helps your case of not looking like a fascist when you DON'T pick terms coined by actual fascists used to oppress marginalized communities.
    - tombert 2y ago
      A lot of words that are used today have depressing etymologies. I dont think calling someone an idiot makes that person look like a fascist, as words change meaning over time, so I don’t really know what your point is. Pretending to be offended by everything honestly makes people look childish. It’s perfectly fine if you’re actually offended, but frankly I don’t think you are. You’re free to think I sound like a “fascist”, I just disagree.

tarkin2 2y ago

It's not that the internet created new behavioural problems, but that intensified old problems.

tombert 2y ago
I know that's what everyone says, what I'm saying is that I'm not sure I agree. I mostly think it just made old problems more visible. At the risk of upsetting Godwin, if you look at the rise to power in Nazi Germany, Hitler was able to appeal to people's inner prejudices and susceptibility to demagoguery and commit one of the worst, if not the worst, atrocities in human history. Hitler didn't post radical content on Facebook or Twitter or Reddit, he just spoke publicly about stuff.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  > Hitler didn't post radical content on Facebook or Twitter or Reddit, he just spoke publicly about stuff. That's what social media allows random people to do much more easily: speak publicly about stuff. Before that you'd have to build a reputation and following in meat space which takes a lot of time and effort. Now it's just a like and share button. I'm sure Hitler would have totally loved using Twitter, Facebook and the like.
  - jemmyw 2y ago
    But then Hitler would have to compete with a million other Hitlers
    - croes 2y ago
      Or they simply join forces
  - eesmith 2y ago
    > That's what social media allows random people to do much more easily: speak publicly about stuff. GeoCities let you speak publicly about stuff, so that alone is an incomplete characterization. What nearly all social media does is preferentially bias message propagation to boost engagement in order to enhance advertising sales and biases of its owner(s). This tends to amplify drama and stoke rivalry.
entropicdrifter 2y ago
It definitely gives people super-specific social niches in which to nurture their worst habits and views in a way that's not just unchallenged but even encouraged. People who are chronically online tend to live in extremely insulated social bubbles. When you go out into the real world for your socialization time you tend to become less radicalized because you're more likely to encounter decent human beings with differing views from yours and your worldview becomes broader for it. Most online communities actively discourage giving others the benefit of the doubt and instead prefer dismissing community-consensus-defying views with either overly harsh labels or extreme skepticism ("explain why you're not a troll for disagreeing with me politely", basically). So in other words, I guess what I'm saying is that the internet seems to have given rise to a new wave of what are effectively cults. They encourage extreme views and extreme rejection of those with outside perspectives. Then when you conform to those views and behaviors, you tend to become socially isolated IRL, which leads to emotional dependence on the radical online community. It's a cycle of bullying that's extremely cult-like, and it's extremely common online.

surgical_fire 2y ago

Before the internet, if you were an insufferable moron, your social circle would likely curb your behavior to a more acceptable level. Now you find communities of like-minded insufferable morons, giving support and cheering each other, and no one to say "cut it out, don't be such an imbecile".

tombert 2y ago
Everyone says that, but there were plenty of insufferable morons before the internet. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson basically made an entire career out of validating the most insufferable people out in America, and for the majority of their careers the internet wasn't involved at all. I really don't think people of today are more insufferable than before the internet. We know about a lot more idiots now than we used to, but that's subtly different.

elpocko 2y ago

Your grandmother didn't change; the world around her, the world she was brought up in, changed. She's not a nut simply because she refused to conform. She's a product of her environment just like you, and when she got older, her willingness to adapt to an ever-changing environment waned. It will happen to you, too.

tombert 2y ago
No, she's definitely a nut. I really hate that people that are sufficiently old enough just get a pass from a large part of society because "they're a product of their time". Well they're living in my time now, and I will judge them by the standards of my time. I think it's wrong to decline a person from a job or from a loan just because they're old, but if that's the standard then it seems to me that I should judge them like I would anyone else. If my grandmother wants to insult Mexicans and call them all "lazy and living off the system" in front of my Mexican immigrant wife [1], she's of course allowed to say that but I don't feel even a modicum of guilt for calling her a nut or an idiot in the process. Whether or not it happens to me is irrelevant. I would hope that future generations hold me to the standard of their time while they and I are living concurrently. [1] Actual quote.
- ravenstine 2y ago
  Where do you draw the line? Are most people from the near past a "nut" in some respect? Your case is more extreme, but pretty much all of my elders are nuts in one way or another in regards to obsolete beliefs. My own parents, for instance, who are otherwise intelligent people, still believe minimum wage should be $6.75 even though they also believe inflation has made groceries too expensive. Are they just stuck in the past or are they nutty?
  - tombert 2y ago
    I don't have a strictly defined "line", though overt racism is pretty much always past it. If you're alive and not in a mental institution today, then I don't feel bad judging you by the same standards as everyone else. If an 80 year old says something racist or sexist, I really don't care if that stuff was acceptable when they were 15: it's not acceptable now. Based on what you described of your parents, I wouldn't call them nuts just based on that. ETA: I'd like to clarify a bit; even though I don't agree with your parents in this example, and I think they're wrong, being wrong doesn't imply "nut". I guess I view it as a matter of degree. I think overt racism is way worse than being a bit wrong about what minimum wage should be, and while, as I said, I don't have a strict line, the line does more or less exist.

ryandrake 2y ago

The Internet has been around for decades, though, and your grandmother probably started using it long before 2016. I'm thinking something else might have happened around 2016... something or someone that could have emboldened hyper-racist nutters and encouraged them to voice their nuttery in public. Carrying that content way outside the audience of a 1997 home video. I can't really put my finger on what it might have been, though.

tombert 2y ago
My grandmother didn't buy a computer until 2005, and didn't have the internet until around 2011.
vijay_erramilli 2y ago
A new, and foul type of orange came into prominence, is what happened.

pier25 2y ago

> we just didn't have the ability to see what most people were thinking or saying I agree but the internet brought a new set of behaviors that weren't possible before. For example, communicating to millions or even billions of people. Our brain developed when human groups were relatively small and it's not ready for the social scale that we're operating now through the internet.

croes 2y ago

Social media makes it easy to find people who think alike. This reduces the inhibitions caused by social pressure, which normally dampens extreme behavior

JohnFen 2y ago

> I get kind of annoyed when people look at the internet or social media and act like it causes all these problems. I don't think it causes these problems. It seems very clear to me that it amplifies them, though.

bulatox 2y ago

[dead]

tombert 2y ago
I am sorry if there was any confusion, but my goal was not to be nice. I think my grandmother is exceedingly stupid. “Idiot” is a very common insult to call someone very stupid. My goal is to be mean in this case. “Nut” is less defensible but I stand by it, and I don’t actually believe you’re offended by it.
- bulatox 2y ago
  Using 'n-t' as an insult perpetuates pseudoscientific mental health labels created to used to institutionalize women (particularly women of color) for simply speaking up or challenging authority. 'i--t' is a weaponized clinical term from the eugenics movement of the early 20th century, where IQ tests were used to justify forced sterilization of BIPOC individuals and women with mental health conditions being disproportionately targeted. I know your goal is to "be mean" to a relative who isn't here(?), but it actually helps your case of not looking like a fascist when you DON'T pick terms coined by actual fascists used to oppress marginalized communities.
  - tombert 2y ago
    A lot of words that are used today have depressing etymologies. I dont think calling someone an idiot makes that person look like a fascist, as words change meaning over time, so I don’t really know what your point is. Pretending to be offended by everything honestly makes people look childish. It’s perfectly fine if you’re actually offended, but frankly I don’t think you are. You’re free to think I sound like a “fascist”, I just disagree.