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He Died Building a Ship for the U.S. Government. His Family Got Nothing

21 points by hn_acker 2y ago

umeshunni 2y ago
[flagged]
- coding123 2y ago
  So I guess the answer is no more illegal work.
  - lazide 2y ago
    We should make breaking laws illegal.
  - VoodooJuJu 2y ago
    Unfortunately, the neoliberal order would completely collapse without illegal work, though they're starting to realize that if they import destitute people legally and lower the standard of living, they can still reap most of the cost benefits of illegal work.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- triceratops 2y ago
  I hope your empathy circuits would be activated if he were legal. So... > hired by a subcontractor That's the actual reason his family got nothing. FTA: "But Pérez wasn’t working directly for Thoma-Sea; he was employed by a contractor. So when he died, Thoma-Sea paid nothing." The subcontractor's punishment? "[OSHA] imposed a fine of $41,480 and then, after Thoma-Sea appealed, reduced it to $31,340. As with potential death benefits, none of that money went to Pérez’s family." You'd think this was a serious security violation which should preclude the company from all government contracts in the future. Hiring someone without legal work authorization makes them a target for coercion. It's a huge risk. Why was there no action against the company from ICE or the Department of Labor or DHS?
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    >Why was there no action from ICE or the Department of Labour or DHS? a) Making it a priority to be a thorn in the side fed contractors who are considered to be doing useful shit for other parts of government is bad politics. That would be like the police harassing whatever landscaper is doing all the town buildings. b) Some dude with a real job and clean record is basically the bottom of the prioritization list. Yeah, we should probably not have un-vetted foreigners, or people generally, working at naval shipyards but the agencies involved to legitimately have better things to be doing and resources are finite (not to say they don't piss some resources away on dumber things). And FWIW this was a boring utility ship. They're not hiring people without confirming that their papers "check out" at places like Electric Boat and Norfolk and subcontractors who don't have record of dotting their Is and crossing their Ts like that don't get jobs at those sorts of places.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      > That would be like the police harassing whatever landscaper is doing all the town buildings. If the company wasn't adequately screening their landscaping crews the police would at the very least have a quiet word with them. > Some dude with a real job and clean record is basically the bottom of the prioritization list. Is the company the "dude" in this scenario? I don't really understand.
      - potato3732842 2y ago
        >If the company wasn't adequately screening their landscaping crews the police would at the very least have a quiet word with them. They could. It's well within their discretion. Perhaps in cases where optics look like they might become important but unless there's a problem that makes them need to look like they're doing something they likely won't because they don't want to meddle in what some other department has going on. I wouldn't count on them going out of their way like this by default. >Is the company the "dude" in this scenario? I don't really understand. The feds mostly harass employers but they also go after individuals if they accumulate criminal records, are wanted in their home countries for really bad stuff, etc. My point was that the employer and specific individual check boxes that make them both last in line to get harassed.
- meowster 2y ago
  It's a terrible situation, although it seems like their legal remedy is filing a lawsuit against the parties involved. Immigration status should not have prevented the dangerous working conditions as indicated by the OSHA fines. Not a lawyer, but I would the the fact that OSHA found issues would help the family's civil case. Hopefully there is someone who can take it on contingency.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Worse, not even hired by a subcontractor, 1099'd by one. And probably not in accordance with the law on the subject since it's doubtful that a low level welder at a shipyard engaged in fed contract work would have the autonomy to pass enough of the requirements to be considered a contractor.
potato3732842 2y ago
The immigration status of the parties involved is just about the least relevant part of the story. There are deeper forces tugging on the macroeconomic picture that that lead to the tragic chain of events being discussed here and I think the author and the intended audience of this piece ought to do some thinking about where all the other straws on the camel's back came from.
- sickofparadox 2y ago
  Actually, I think the fact that he entered the country illegally and then proceeded to commit multiple forms of fraud to get hired by an contractor for the US government is extremely relevant. There should probably be massive penalties put upon the subcontractor and the government should demand termination of their contract.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Probably some combination of plausible deniability/buddy buddy somewhere is going to stop that.
    - sickofparadox 2y ago
      Its far more likely that there is no mechanism forcing the contract manager to care. The threat of law enforcement action is hazy, at best, and they know they can continue on scot-free.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - isk517 2y ago
        Or the government for that matter, had the welder been a citizen this would have probably cost $500,000. Instead they walkway with $31,000 of profit.
        2y ago
JamesCoyne 2y ago
> "When Pérez’s partner sought death benefits from G-4 Services, the local staffing contractor that had hired him to work for Thoma-Sea, G-4 rebuffed her. “Pérez was a self-employed independent contractor and thus a claim for death benefits is not compensable..." Brutal
OutOfHere 2y ago
All shipyard work needs to first be evaluated for safety by a dedicated safety engineer. It's the job of the safety engineer to evaluate risks and order steps to minimize if not eliminate them. There also needs to be a Stop Work allowance that allows any employee to immediately order work to stop anywhere if a safety risk exists until the safety engineer can review the risk. As for contract workers, they always get the short end of the stick. Ideally the shipyard work must be done by full-time union employees only. If management doesn't like it, they should use robots to automate.

21 points by hn_acker 2y ago

umeshunni 2y ago

[flagged]

coding123 2y ago
So I guess the answer is no more illegal work.
- lazide 2y ago
  We should make breaking laws illegal.
- VoodooJuJu 2y ago
  Unfortunately, the neoliberal order would completely collapse without illegal work, though they're starting to realize that if they import destitute people legally and lower the standard of living, they can still reap most of the cost benefits of illegal work.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
triceratops 2y ago
I hope your empathy circuits would be activated if he were legal. So... > hired by a subcontractor That's the actual reason his family got nothing. FTA: "But Pérez wasn’t working directly for Thoma-Sea; he was employed by a contractor. So when he died, Thoma-Sea paid nothing." The subcontractor's punishment? "[OSHA] imposed a fine of $41,480 and then, after Thoma-Sea appealed, reduced it to $31,340. As with potential death benefits, none of that money went to Pérez’s family." You'd think this was a serious security violation which should preclude the company from all government contracts in the future. Hiring someone without legal work authorization makes them a target for coercion. It's a huge risk. Why was there no action against the company from ICE or the Department of Labor or DHS?
- potato3732842 2y ago
  >Why was there no action from ICE or the Department of Labour or DHS? a) Making it a priority to be a thorn in the side fed contractors who are considered to be doing useful shit for other parts of government is bad politics. That would be like the police harassing whatever landscaper is doing all the town buildings. b) Some dude with a real job and clean record is basically the bottom of the prioritization list. Yeah, we should probably not have un-vetted foreigners, or people generally, working at naval shipyards but the agencies involved to legitimately have better things to be doing and resources are finite (not to say they don't piss some resources away on dumber things). And FWIW this was a boring utility ship. They're not hiring people without confirming that their papers "check out" at places like Electric Boat and Norfolk and subcontractors who don't have record of dotting their Is and crossing their Ts like that don't get jobs at those sorts of places.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    > That would be like the police harassing whatever landscaper is doing all the town buildings. If the company wasn't adequately screening their landscaping crews the police would at the very least have a quiet word with them. > Some dude with a real job and clean record is basically the bottom of the prioritization list. Is the company the "dude" in this scenario? I don't really understand.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      >If the company wasn't adequately screening their landscaping crews the police would at the very least have a quiet word with them. They could. It's well within their discretion. Perhaps in cases where optics look like they might become important but unless there's a problem that makes them need to look like they're doing something they likely won't because they don't want to meddle in what some other department has going on. I wouldn't count on them going out of their way like this by default. >Is the company the "dude" in this scenario? I don't really understand. The feds mostly harass employers but they also go after individuals if they accumulate criminal records, are wanted in their home countries for really bad stuff, etc. My point was that the employer and specific individual check boxes that make them both last in line to get harassed.
meowster 2y ago
It's a terrible situation, although it seems like their legal remedy is filing a lawsuit against the parties involved. Immigration status should not have prevented the dangerous working conditions as indicated by the OSHA fines. Not a lawyer, but I would the the fact that OSHA found issues would help the family's civil case. Hopefully there is someone who can take it on contingency.
potato3732842 2y ago
Worse, not even hired by a subcontractor, 1099'd by one. And probably not in accordance with the law on the subject since it's doubtful that a low level welder at a shipyard engaged in fed contract work would have the autonomy to pass enough of the requirements to be considered a contractor.

potato3732842 2y ago

The immigration status of the parties involved is just about the least relevant part of the story. There are deeper forces tugging on the macroeconomic picture that that lead to the tragic chain of events being discussed here and I think the author and the intended audience of this piece ought to do some thinking about where all the other straws on the camel's back came from.

sickofparadox 2y ago
Actually, I think the fact that he entered the country illegally and then proceeded to commit multiple forms of fraud to get hired by an contractor for the US government is extremely relevant. There should probably be massive penalties put upon the subcontractor and the government should demand termination of their contract.
- lazide 2y ago
  Probably some combination of plausible deniability/buddy buddy somewhere is going to stop that.
  - sickofparadox 2y ago
    Its far more likely that there is no mechanism forcing the contract manager to care. The threat of law enforcement action is hazy, at best, and they know they can continue on scot-free.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - isk517 2y ago
      Or the government for that matter, had the welder been a citizen this would have probably cost $500,000. Instead they walkway with $31,000 of profit.
      - 2y ago

JamesCoyne 2y ago

> "When Pérez’s partner sought death benefits from G-4 Services, the local staffing contractor that had hired him to work for Thoma-Sea, G-4 rebuffed her. “Pérez was a self-employed independent contractor and thus a claim for death benefits is not compensable..." Brutal

OutOfHere 2y ago

All shipyard work needs to first be evaluated for safety by a dedicated safety engineer. It's the job of the safety engineer to evaluate risks and order steps to minimize if not eliminate them. There also needs to be a Stop Work allowance that allows any employee to immediately order work to stop anywhere if a safety risk exists until the safety engineer can review the risk. As for contract workers, they always get the short end of the stick. Ideally the shipyard work must be done by full-time union employees only. If management doesn't like it, they should use robots to automate.