6 ms·

All Apple stores could close for 30 days in Italy over warranty case

47 points by imaginator 14y ago

duiker101 14y ago
As an Italian Apple behaviour really makes me rage. They believe to be above everyone, even governments. And this is the proof that Apple only cares about the money and not really about the customer.
- beedogs 14y ago
  Agreeing from here in Australia, where the iPad can no longer be called "4G compatible".
  - vacri 14y ago
    Apple is extraordinarily US-centric, it's just convenient for them that people in other countries like their stuff enough to buy it too.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
raquo 14y ago
Apple's disregard for local laws is not specific to Italy. A warranty repair from Apple in Russia would have taken "a few months", way more than the allowed maximum of 21 days. I had to send my laptop to US with a friend for repairs.
Luc 14y ago
As far as I know, Apple DOES acknowledge the two year guarantee under European law, it just ADDITIONALLY has its own 1 year guarantee with different conditions. Here, for example, is the Apple page for the Dutch market detailing the different guarantees (in Dutch): http://www.apple.com/nl/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/nl/legal/statutory-warranty/ It seems then that the issue is about communication, not about actually offering a lesser guarantee and ignoring EU law.
- fesja 14y ago
  Not really, Apple is not obeying European law. Looking at the UK warranty page: http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ They are clearly saying that they are only going to fix problems within the first year (Apple One-Year Limited Warranty). They say that the EU law says: "Defects present when customer takes delivery". But that's very open and misleading. If I hard drive breaks on the 15th month, is my fault or Apple's? If the battery drains too quickly? If the screen starts doing faulty things? The European law is very clear, if something breaks within the first 2 years because of a factory/design problem, it's Apple fault. They have enough margin not to be cheap about that and making European customers angry.
  - Luc 14y ago
    > They are clearly saying that they are only going to fix problems within the first year (Apple One-Year Limited Warranty). That's simply not true. > They say that the EU law says: "Defects present when customer takes delivery". And that's what EU law says, although several countries have gone further in their local implementation of it. > If I hard drive breaks on the 15th month, is my fault or Apple's? If the battery drains too quickly? If the screen starts doing faulty things? Apple's if it breaks during normal use, yours if it's due to abnormal use. > They have enough margin not to be cheap about that and making European customers angry. What you mean is that some wrongly informed people are angry after reading some biased press articles and are taking sides in a supposed 'Apple VS EU' battle - the big mean corporation against the little consumer. If you ever have this problem, take it to small claims court and it will get sorted in no time. Caveat emptor.
    - thatjoshguy 14y ago
      > take it to small claims court and it will get sorted in no time Hope you're not under the impression that Apple will just 'cave in' and fix it out of court to minimise hassel. Check out http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/ http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-i... > If Apple could have replaced my logic board at no cost to themselves, then why in the hell did they drag this out for so long, and why did they send two people to court to try and make sure that I got absolutely nothing? Friends, this is a question I have been asking myself for three months, and it is a question that I do not have the answer to.
fesja 14y ago
The same happens in Spain. They don't (initially) respect the 2 years warranty. I believe Spanish authorities should do the same: fine them as much as they can until they start obeying local laws like everyone else. However if you protest you get the 2 year warranty, but not everyone knows how to protest and what do say to convince Apple employees ;)
danmaz74 14y ago
Ironically, one of my friends just yesterday contacted Apple about his iPad not recognizing the SIM card anymore. His iPad is 18 months old, and we live in Italy. From customer care they said "er... wait ten minutes please... I have to contact my boss over this, I'm not sure if the product is covered". Two minutes later my friend was recalled and the Apple guy confirmed that they will handle the problem as if it was still in the first year of the guarantee.
sjaakkkkk 14y ago
I won't be surprised if there are only a few official Apple stores in Italy. Here in the Netherlands there is only one, and Italy is only a couple of times larger than the Netherlands. Any Italians that can confirm this?
- ordersy 14y ago
  http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/ http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/ P.S. Not every Italian cares about apple stores.
- coob 14y ago
  Italy is an order of magnitude larger than the Netherlands: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=size+of+italy+vs+netherlands http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=size+of+italy+vs+nether...
  - vacri 14y ago
    17 million vs 60 million is not an order of magnitude.
    - batista 14y ago
      Well, it has an order of magnitude more Applestores, anyway.
- napolux 14y ago
  In Italy we have 10 Official Apple Stores and a huge amount of Apple Premium Resellers.
rmc 14y ago
Italian law states that consumer electronics devices must be sold with a two-year free warranty For the record, this isn't just Italian law, but it EU law. All half a billion (or so) people in the EU can benefit from this sort of protection.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  In Australia, the Australian Consumer Law forbids a seller from requiring a guarantee that already covers their implicit rights. Apple might want to watch themselves here - they've already been fined $2.2 million over deceptive advertising claiming th iPad3 is compatible with 4G in Australia.
  - thatjoshguy 14y ago
    > forbids a seller from requiring a guarantee that already covers their implicit rights. AppleCare is not required, and in includes other things that are not covered under implicit rights, such as onsite support, or telephone support outside of 1 incident/90 days.
- mkaltenecker 14y ago
  Nope, they can’t. Local implementations differ wildly. In Germany, the burden of proof reverses after six months (i.e. after six months the buyer has to proof that a defect was present when they bought the product – I have not idea how you can do that short of hiring some sort of expert), making the two year warranty basically useless. No company will do anything for you after six months. Also, I can very much understand why Apple found itself in the situation it is in Italy. In Germany there is a very clear difference between a „Garantie“ (lit. “guarantee”) and a „Gewährleistung“ (≈ “defects liability”). A „Garantie“ is a contract between seller (or a company which made the product) and buyer with certain guarantees and conditions the seller provides. That’s exactly what Apple does with their one year warranty. The conditions are very different from those of the law. A „Gewährleistung“ is what the law requires the seller to do if there is any defect in the product that was there when it was sold. How that is implemented in detail differs from country to country. Also note that I’m talking about the seller here. Apple provides their warranty no matter where you buy your Apple product. You can go directly to them if you have a problem, no matter where you bought it. That’s not so in the case of the „Gewährleistung“. To make it easy for buyers, they can always go to their sellers with problems that are covered by the law. They probably were too broad in their EU policy and ignored that Italy is so damn finicky about this.
gianpaj 14y ago
In 2013 Italy will be one of the first countries to have more Android users than iPhone ! Awesome
kmfrk 14y ago
I wrote an explanation of this, the last time this was discussed on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3783687 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3783687. For those who are confused by the European concept of guaranteed two-year warranty.
d3r42 14y ago
Italy isn't the only place suffering from poor Apple service. I experienced the worst service of my life from Apple South Africa. My iPad USB cable frayed, and I was first told that it was not under warranty. Then I found it was, from the call centre who asked me to take it in to the nearest iStore. When I took it in, the salesperson refused to help until I made an appoinment. I phoned their local call centre which instructed him to help me, and the he still refused to help. I had to get the manager involved. Three weeks later -after they lost my serial number twice- I finally got a replacement cable. You can't use the local App Store to buy games (since they haven't bothered to arrange for self-rating like other app stores). This is never mentioned by Apple South Africa in their marketing material. My theory is that their overseas branches/distributors were set up for an older era, and they can't keep up with Apple's sudden rise.
- glhaynes 14y ago
  You can't use the local App Store to buy games (since they haven't bothered to arrange for self-rating like other app stores). Can you say a bit more about this? I don't follow.
  - d3r42 14y ago
    Games in South Africa have to be individually rated by the Films and Publications Board. Mobile App Stores can apply for an exemption from this rating process and self rate (Nokia and others have done so). Apple hasn't bothered: http://www.thyon.com/blog-entry/items/apples-lack-of-games-music-movies-tv-in-south-africa.html http://www.thyon.com/blog-entry/items/apples-lack-of-games-m... There are workarounds for South Africans, some easier than others, but it is very annoying, and Apple never mentions that you can't buy games with a South African App Store account in their advertising.
    - glhaynes 14y ago
      Oh, I see. Wow, that seems crazy for that not to have been done. Thanks for the info.

47 points by imaginator 14y ago

As an Italian Apple behaviour really makes me rage. They believe to be above everyone, even governments. And this is the proof that Apple only cares about the money and not really about the customer.

beedogs 14y ago
Agreeing from here in Australia, where the iPad can no longer be called "4G compatible".
- vacri 14y ago
  Apple is extraordinarily US-centric, it's just convenient for them that people in other countries like their stuff enough to buy it too.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

raquo 14y ago

Apple's disregard for local laws is not specific to Italy. A warranty repair from Apple in Russia would have taken "a few months", way more than the allowed maximum of 21 days. I had to send my laptop to US with a friend for repairs.

Luc 14y ago

As far as I know, Apple DOES acknowledge the two year guarantee under European law, it just ADDITIONALLY has its own 1 year guarantee with different conditions. Here, for example, is the Apple page for the Dutch market detailing the different guarantees (in Dutch): http://www.apple.com/nl/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/nl/legal/statutory-warranty/ It seems then that the issue is about communication, not about actually offering a lesser guarantee and ignoring EU law.

fesja 14y ago
Not really, Apple is not obeying European law. Looking at the UK warranty page: http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ They are clearly saying that they are only going to fix problems within the first year (Apple One-Year Limited Warranty). They say that the EU law says: "Defects present when customer takes delivery". But that's very open and misleading. If I hard drive breaks on the 15th month, is my fault or Apple's? If the battery drains too quickly? If the screen starts doing faulty things? The European law is very clear, if something breaks within the first 2 years because of a factory/design problem, it's Apple fault. They have enough margin not to be cheap about that and making European customers angry.
- Luc 14y ago
  > They are clearly saying that they are only going to fix problems within the first year (Apple One-Year Limited Warranty). That's simply not true. > They say that the EU law says: "Defects present when customer takes delivery". And that's what EU law says, although several countries have gone further in their local implementation of it. > If I hard drive breaks on the 15th month, is my fault or Apple's? If the battery drains too quickly? If the screen starts doing faulty things? Apple's if it breaks during normal use, yours if it's due to abnormal use. > They have enough margin not to be cheap about that and making European customers angry. What you mean is that some wrongly informed people are angry after reading some biased press articles and are taking sides in a supposed 'Apple VS EU' battle - the big mean corporation against the little consumer. If you ever have this problem, take it to small claims court and it will get sorted in no time. Caveat emptor.
  - thatjoshguy 14y ago
    > take it to small claims court and it will get sorted in no time Hope you're not under the impression that Apple will just 'cave in' and fix it out of court to minimise hassel. Check out http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/ http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-i... > If Apple could have replaced my logic board at no cost to themselves, then why in the hell did they drag this out for so long, and why did they send two people to court to try and make sure that I got absolutely nothing? Friends, this is a question I have been asking myself for three months, and it is a question that I do not have the answer to.

fesja 14y ago

The same happens in Spain. They don't (initially) respect the 2 years warranty. I believe Spanish authorities should do the same: fine them as much as they can until they start obeying local laws like everyone else. However if you protest you get the 2 year warranty, but not everyone knows how to protest and what do say to convince Apple employees ;)

danmaz74 14y ago

Ironically, one of my friends just yesterday contacted Apple about his iPad not recognizing the SIM card anymore. His iPad is 18 months old, and we live in Italy. From customer care they said "er... wait ten minutes please... I have to contact my boss over this, I'm not sure if the product is covered". Two minutes later my friend was recalled and the Apple guy confirmed that they will handle the problem as if it was still in the first year of the guarantee.

sjaakkkkk 14y ago

I won't be surprised if there are only a few official Apple stores in Italy. Here in the Netherlands there is only one, and Italy is only a couple of times larger than the Netherlands. Any Italians that can confirm this?

ordersy 14y ago
http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/ http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/ P.S. Not every Italian cares about apple stores.
coob 14y ago
Italy is an order of magnitude larger than the Netherlands: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=size+of+italy+vs+netherlands http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=size+of+italy+vs+nether...
- vacri 14y ago
  17 million vs 60 million is not an order of magnitude.
  - batista 14y ago
    Well, it has an order of magnitude more Applestores, anyway.
napolux 14y ago
In Italy we have 10 Official Apple Stores and a huge amount of Apple Premium Resellers.

rmc 14y ago

Italian law states that consumer electronics devices must be sold with a two-year free warranty For the record, this isn't just Italian law, but it EU law. All half a billion (or so) people in the EU can benefit from this sort of protection.

chris_wot 14y ago
In Australia, the Australian Consumer Law forbids a seller from requiring a guarantee that already covers their implicit rights. Apple might want to watch themselves here - they've already been fined $2.2 million over deceptive advertising claiming th iPad3 is compatible with 4G in Australia.
- thatjoshguy 14y ago
  > forbids a seller from requiring a guarantee that already covers their implicit rights. AppleCare is not required, and in includes other things that are not covered under implicit rights, such as onsite support, or telephone support outside of 1 incident/90 days.
mkaltenecker 14y ago
Nope, they can’t. Local implementations differ wildly. In Germany, the burden of proof reverses after six months (i.e. after six months the buyer has to proof that a defect was present when they bought the product – I have not idea how you can do that short of hiring some sort of expert), making the two year warranty basically useless. No company will do anything for you after six months. Also, I can very much understand why Apple found itself in the situation it is in Italy. In Germany there is a very clear difference between a „Garantie“ (lit. “guarantee”) and a „Gewährleistung“ (≈ “defects liability”). A „Garantie“ is a contract between seller (or a company which made the product) and buyer with certain guarantees and conditions the seller provides. That’s exactly what Apple does with their one year warranty. The conditions are very different from those of the law. A „Gewährleistung“ is what the law requires the seller to do if there is any defect in the product that was there when it was sold. How that is implemented in detail differs from country to country. Also note that I’m talking about the seller here. Apple provides their warranty no matter where you buy your Apple product. You can go directly to them if you have a problem, no matter where you bought it. That’s not so in the case of the „Gewährleistung“. To make it easy for buyers, they can always go to their sellers with problems that are covered by the law. They probably were too broad in their EU policy and ignored that Italy is so damn finicky about this.

gianpaj 14y ago

In 2013 Italy will be one of the first countries to have more Android users than iPhone ! Awesome

kmfrk 14y ago

I wrote an explanation of this, the last time this was discussed on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3783687 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3783687. For those who are confused by the European concept of guaranteed two-year warranty.

d3r42 14y ago

Italy isn't the only place suffering from poor Apple service. I experienced the worst service of my life from Apple South Africa. My iPad USB cable frayed, and I was first told that it was not under warranty. Then I found it was, from the call centre who asked me to take it in to the nearest iStore. When I took it in, the salesperson refused to help until I made an appoinment. I phoned their local call centre which instructed him to help me, and the he still refused to help. I had to get the manager involved. Three weeks later -after they lost my serial number twice- I finally got a replacement cable. You can't use the local App Store to buy games (since they haven't bothered to arrange for self-rating like other app stores). This is never mentioned by Apple South Africa in their marketing material. My theory is that their overseas branches/distributors were set up for an older era, and they can't keep up with Apple's sudden rise.

glhaynes 14y ago
You can't use the local App Store to buy games (since they haven't bothered to arrange for self-rating like other app stores). Can you say a bit more about this? I don't follow.
- d3r42 14y ago
  Games in South Africa have to be individually rated by the Films and Publications Board. Mobile App Stores can apply for an exemption from this rating process and self rate (Nokia and others have done so). Apple hasn't bothered: http://www.thyon.com/blog-entry/items/apples-lack-of-games-music-movies-tv-in-south-africa.html http://www.thyon.com/blog-entry/items/apples-lack-of-games-m... There are workarounds for South Africans, some easier than others, but it is very annoying, and Apple never mentions that you can't buy games with a South African App Store account in their advertising.
  - glhaynes 14y ago
    Oh, I see. Wow, that seems crazy for that not to have been done. Thanks for the info.