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I don't think many Western developers understand how much damage Linus just single-handedly dealt to the accumulated respect and trust towards the Linux Foundat

by fuoqi 2y ago

I don't think many Western developers understand how much damage Linus just single-handedly dealt to the accumulated respect and trust towards the Linux Foundation leadership. If you think that the Russian IT community will think "damn, this evil Putin, we need to overthrow him", think again after taking a look at these discussions (in Russian) [1][2]. And many developers from other countries (especially from China) certainly have started to think "hm, we may be next" and act accordingly because of that, e.g. by not actively participating in the Linux development in the first place. They could've handled it MUCH better, most people understand that the removal by itself is understandable (properly navigating the current regime of sanctions is extremely hard and it's better for an US-based organization to be conservative, doubly so with people from the directly sanctioned companies like Baikal Electronics), but lack of transparency, sneakiness, and the extremely aggressive, unnecessary and dehumanizing remarks from Linus just the situation from unfortunate bad to extreme worse. [1]: https://habr.com/ru/news/852962/comments/ https://habr.com/ru/news/852962/comments/ [2]: https://www.linux.org.ru/news/linux-general/17766938/page3#comments https://www.linux.org.ru/news/linux-general/17766938/page3#c...

_w1tm 2y ago
> the extremely aggressive, unnecessary and dehumanizing remarks from Linus Linus being Linus. I thought he had gotten some comms training but it’s hard to change when you’ve spent most of your career communicating very directly.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  Linus and the Linux foundation breaking their own COC: >In the interest of fostering an open and welcoming environment, we as contributors and maintainers pledge to making participation in our project and our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, _ethnicity_, sex characteristics, gender identity and expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, _nationality_, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    I don't see "employer" on that list. Apparently, these people are being removed from their maintainership status due to their employer, not their nationality.
    - 4bpp 2y ago
      I assume your interlocutor was referring to how he dismissed those who complained about the move as "Russian trolls" more than the original delisting itself.
      - lostmsu 2y ago
        This also refers to employment. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades
  - oneshtein 2y ago
    I don't see "war" in this list.
- gn4d 2y ago
  This is markedly different afaict. In the past, Linus was brash with individuals, and sometimes corporations, judging them by their actions (even if at times unfairly). Now he is demonizing people based on their country of origin, and citing historical military conflicts as justification for demonizing them. The shark has been jumped.
  - lostmsu 2y ago
    > he is demonizing people based on their country of origin No he is not. > citing historical military conflicts Historical? Ah, I got it. That would be bad if this was his main argument, but it is not.
    - gn4d 2y ago
      Are you incapable of reading, or what?
      - lostmsu 2y ago
        From my perspective you are reading between the lines something that's not there. It is very strange to blame another person for your own hallucinations. > he is demonizing people based on their country of origin Quote?
        gn4d 2y ago
        Are you incapable of reading, or what?
  - Paradigma11 2y ago
    Not wanting to support the Russian MIC that will be used against your home and family the next time Russia invades is not demonizing people.
    - gn4d 2y ago
      ???
0dayz 2y ago
What's you point here exactly? Without russia/China we're doomed? Is it the same for these two countries too if the west moves away from them? And where exactly is Linus this evil strawman you created?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- fuoqi 2y ago
  My point is that do not act surprised when you will see a noticeable reduction of contributions from Russian, Chinese, etc. developers. Most of people leaving (or not joining in the first place) will not be as visible as the Sergey's goodbye. By itself it may not be a huge deal, especially in the near term, but it compounds with other factors like dwindling (relative) popularity of C and the recent Rust debacle. >And where exactly is Linus this evil strawman you created? "Strawman"? Sure... https://typeblog.net/55833/getting-called-paid-actor-by-linus-torvalds https://typeblog.net/55833/getting-called-paid-actor-by-linu...
  - 0dayz 2y ago
    >My point is that do not act surprised when you will see a noticeable reduction of contributions from Russian, Chinese, etc. developers. Most of people leaving (or not joining in the first place) will not be as visible as the Sergey's goodbye. By itself it may not be a huge deal, especially in the near term, but it compounds with other factors like dwindling (relative) popularity of C and the recent Rust debacle. I highly doubt anyone would be surprised that people would not stop contributing if they agree with their country's interest in which said countries has questionable interests juxtaposition to USA's - which is where Linux is based. If anything they would be surprised if they continue to contribute despite their country's geopolitical dumbfuckery and good for them, they got my support all the way. >https://typeblog.net/55833/getting-called-paid-actor-by-linus-torvalds https://typeblog.net/55833/getting-called-paid-actor-by-linu... First just going to state: Linus/Greg issue of lack of transparency is not something I've said that I'm neither agree/disagree with. But nothing in this blogpost does very much of anything in showing some new revelation of Linus being a person who "dehumanizes" unless the phrase: > I'm also not going to start discussing legal issues with random > internet people who I seriously suspect are paid actors and/or have > been ----->_riled up by them_<-----. is somehow now synonymous with dehumanization. But maybe I'm missing something, if so you're more than welcome to highlight where Linus has done something "dehumanizing".
gn4d 2y ago
Well said.

by fuoqi 2y ago

_w1tm 2y ago

> the extremely aggressive, unnecessary and dehumanizing remarks from Linus Linus being Linus. I thought he had gotten some comms training but it’s hard to change when you’ve spent most of your career communicating very directly.

llm_trw 2y ago
Linus and the Linux foundation breaking their own COC: >In the interest of fostering an open and welcoming environment, we as contributors and maintainers pledge to making participation in our project and our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, _ethnicity_, sex characteristics, gender identity and expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, _nationality_, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  I don't see "employer" on that list. Apparently, these people are being removed from their maintainership status due to their employer, not their nationality.
  - 4bpp 2y ago
    I assume your interlocutor was referring to how he dismissed those who complained about the move as "Russian trolls" more than the original delisting itself.
    - lostmsu 2y ago
      This also refers to employment. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades
- oneshtein 2y ago
  I don't see "war" in this list.
gn4d 2y ago
This is markedly different afaict. In the past, Linus was brash with individuals, and sometimes corporations, judging them by their actions (even if at times unfairly). Now he is demonizing people based on their country of origin, and citing historical military conflicts as justification for demonizing them. The shark has been jumped.
- lostmsu 2y ago
  > he is demonizing people based on their country of origin No he is not. > citing historical military conflicts Historical? Ah, I got it. That would be bad if this was his main argument, but it is not.
  - gn4d 2y ago
    Are you incapable of reading, or what?
    - lostmsu 2y ago
      From my perspective you are reading between the lines something that's not there. It is very strange to blame another person for your own hallucinations. > he is demonizing people based on their country of origin Quote?
      - gn4d 2y ago
        Are you incapable of reading, or what?
- Paradigma11 2y ago
  Not wanting to support the Russian MIC that will be used against your home and family the next time Russia invades is not demonizing people.
  - gn4d 2y ago
    ???

0dayz 2y ago

What's you point here exactly? Without russia/China we're doomed? Is it the same for these two countries too if the west moves away from them? And where exactly is Linus this evil strawman you created?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
fuoqi 2y ago
My point is that do not act surprised when you will see a noticeable reduction of contributions from Russian, Chinese, etc. developers. Most of people leaving (or not joining in the first place) will not be as visible as the Sergey's goodbye. By itself it may not be a huge deal, especially in the near term, but it compounds with other factors like dwindling (relative) popularity of C and the recent Rust debacle. >And where exactly is Linus this evil strawman you created? "Strawman"? Sure... https://typeblog.net/55833/getting-called-paid-actor-by-linus-torvalds https://typeblog.net/55833/getting-called-paid-actor-by-linu...
- 0dayz 2y ago
  >My point is that do not act surprised when you will see a noticeable reduction of contributions from Russian, Chinese, etc. developers. Most of people leaving (or not joining in the first place) will not be as visible as the Sergey's goodbye. By itself it may not be a huge deal, especially in the near term, but it compounds with other factors like dwindling (relative) popularity of C and the recent Rust debacle. I highly doubt anyone would be surprised that people would not stop contributing if they agree with their country's interest in which said countries has questionable interests juxtaposition to USA's - which is where Linux is based. If anything they would be surprised if they continue to contribute despite their country's geopolitical dumbfuckery and good for them, they got my support all the way. >https://typeblog.net/55833/getting-called-paid-actor-by-linus-torvalds https://typeblog.net/55833/getting-called-paid-actor-by-linu... First just going to state: Linus/Greg issue of lack of transparency is not something I've said that I'm neither agree/disagree with. But nothing in this blogpost does very much of anything in showing some new revelation of Linus being a person who "dehumanizes" unless the phrase: > I'm also not going to start discussing legal issues with random > internet people who I seriously suspect are paid actors and/or have > been ----->_riled up by them_<-----. is somehow now synonymous with dehumanization. But maybe I'm missing something, if so you're more than welcome to highlight where Linus has done something "dehumanizing".

gn4d 2y ago

Well said.