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This is a nice (and sad) goodbye email from Serge(y). It's moving to see all this time and work, what it meant to the person, and also to imagine what the contr

This is a nice (and sad) goodbye email from Serge(y). It's moving to see all this time and work, what it meant to the person, and also to imagine what the contributions made mean to so many people who use the software. :`( The situation is sad for individual contributors indeed. The overall backdrop does seem in line with sanctions requirements for ITAR, OFAC etc.

alkyon 2y ago
[flagged]
- keepamovin 2y ago
  I know you must have really strong feelings about it and may have even personally suffered, that is terrible and sad too! In war time a lot of companies supply the country. The war is obviously no fault of his. But the leap to persecution is actually a more war-like attitude that is where we lose some of our humanity and decency, so it’s better to skip it.
  - alkyon 2y ago
    "Supply the country" is misrepresentation. He's not a baker. Microprocessors manufacrured by Baikal Electronics were used by military (however defective they were). I don't think it's persecution what Linus did, it is a necessity
    - keepamovin 2y ago
      By leap to persecution I was referring to your comment about him. But I guess Linus' words count too. Anyway, I feel sorry for you that you think that way. When abusing people based on their country becomes a necessity, we are not far from war.
      - Veen 2y ago
        We are not far from war because Russia invaded Europe. This developer works for a company supplying materiel to the Russian military.
        keepamovin 2y ago
        Look beyond the common explanations. Russia is not an unreasonable or irrational actor. There’s context you’re missing, I think. When you lay the blame all on one side you justify war. Anyway, the bigger picture is that no human society is free of war, blood and death. This is not a group-unique problem. It is a whole of humanity problem. Keeping that in mind, i.e. the geopolitical version of the hacker news rule remember the human, might actually pave the path to peace. To resolve a genuine conflict you probably need each party to take 100% responsibility.
        Veen 2y ago
        I'm happy to bite the bullet. I have taken sides and I want my side to win. People who give material support to the enemy should face consequences. I come to this conclusion because war is an inevitable "humanity problem", there will never be universal peace, and I'd rather Ukraine was free and Europe-aligned than unfree and Russia-aligned. Why? Because I'm European and that's better for me, my country, and the people I care about.
      - thoroughburro 2y ago
        You’re weirdly intent on painting antiwar actions as prowar. No argument; you just state it over and over. Peace is war, war is peace? Nah. You’re just propagandizing.
        keepamovin 2y ago
        If you can’t see the connection, I guess that makes you at risk of being pro-war, yeah? Hehehe :)
    - kalloc 2y ago
      and it's still open source?
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    What an utterly false equivalence. One guy loses his "volunteer" position, which in fact he was being paid to do by either the Russian government or the Russian military (via Baikal Electronics). The other side has missiles and drones falling on their cities.
    - cpluseq 2y ago
      At the moment the most bombed place in the world is probably Lebanon. What should be done to make sure Linux is not involved in this bombing of civilians? At the very least, we should figure out which military contractors are involved, and which countries they are from.
      - alkyon 2y ago
        This is whataboutism. Isreal maybe is not my cup of tea, but at least they have some justification for waging their war because they were attacked first. So Israel with all its faults is not in the same league with Russia. Edit: typo
    - keepamovin 2y ago
      Losing the sense of balance and proportionality, with everyone being equal, is what takes you down the road to war...Not good.
      - Symbiote 2y ago
        The West was trying that. We were trading with Russia and so on. Russia invaded, and again, and again, and again.
  - TiredOfLife 2y ago
    > The war is obviously no fault of his. Citation needed.
    - keepamovin 2y ago
      Sure: see cite note [1] [1]: common sense
krick 2y ago
I mean, for me (as well as him, obviously) it is a matter of "how" rather than "what". It is understandable, that what for some government officials is political reasons, for Linux end up being legal reasons, so no matter how ugly it is, it is not surprising at all that it came down to banning somebody who works for a sanctioned organization. It also doesn't matter that it makes no sense whatsoever (after all, you don't have to show your documents applying to the Linux mailing list), since most adult people get the fact that there's no justice in life. But it is one thing when it's "sorry man, nothing I can do" (as in his private conversations with senior maintenaners), and other thing entirely, when for all your good work you are being dealt with like that, no heads-up, no good-bye, instead you get these things Linus has said today. Like, seriously, it doesn't even matter if Linus hates Russians and truly personally thinks this is desirable to get rid of these maintainers, it is just a matter of human decency to not make it any more than it has to be against individual person that basically worked for you (for free). And even if you don't have any human decency, it still just would be smarter to play it more neutral. So, yeah, it was really even surprisingly ugly.
- keepamovin 2y ago
  That’s sad, too. Sounds like you got caught up in this, nothing that’s your fault, as well. I’m sorry to hear it. I agree the how should have been way better implemented. For the human enterprises that they are it certainly seems like insufficient consideration is often paid to that. Better to have difficult conversations than pretend it will be okay and everyone will be fine. Sometimes people are just saving themselves by avoiding that. Unfortunately to the detriment of others!

alkyon 2y ago

[flagged]

keepamovin 2y ago
I know you must have really strong feelings about it and may have even personally suffered, that is terrible and sad too! In war time a lot of companies supply the country. The war is obviously no fault of his. But the leap to persecution is actually a more war-like attitude that is where we lose some of our humanity and decency, so it’s better to skip it.
- alkyon 2y ago
  "Supply the country" is misrepresentation. He's not a baker. Microprocessors manufacrured by Baikal Electronics were used by military (however defective they were). I don't think it's persecution what Linus did, it is a necessity
  - keepamovin 2y ago
    By leap to persecution I was referring to your comment about him. But I guess Linus' words count too. Anyway, I feel sorry for you that you think that way. When abusing people based on their country becomes a necessity, we are not far from war.
    - Veen 2y ago
      We are not far from war because Russia invaded Europe. This developer works for a company supplying materiel to the Russian military.
      - keepamovin 2y ago
        Look beyond the common explanations. Russia is not an unreasonable or irrational actor. There’s context you’re missing, I think. When you lay the blame all on one side you justify war. Anyway, the bigger picture is that no human society is free of war, blood and death. This is not a group-unique problem. It is a whole of humanity problem. Keeping that in mind, i.e. the geopolitical version of the hacker news rule remember the human, might actually pave the path to peace. To resolve a genuine conflict you probably need each party to take 100% responsibility.
        Veen 2y ago
        I'm happy to bite the bullet. I have taken sides and I want my side to win. People who give material support to the enemy should face consequences. I come to this conclusion because war is an inevitable "humanity problem", there will never be universal peace, and I'd rather Ukraine was free and Europe-aligned than unfree and Russia-aligned. Why? Because I'm European and that's better for me, my country, and the people I care about.
    - thoroughburro 2y ago
      You’re weirdly intent on painting antiwar actions as prowar. No argument; you just state it over and over. Peace is war, war is peace? Nah. You’re just propagandizing.
      - keepamovin 2y ago
        If you can’t see the connection, I guess that makes you at risk of being pro-war, yeah? Hehehe :)
  - kalloc 2y ago
    and it's still open source?
- Symbiote 2y ago
  What an utterly false equivalence. One guy loses his "volunteer" position, which in fact he was being paid to do by either the Russian government or the Russian military (via Baikal Electronics). The other side has missiles and drones falling on their cities.
  - cpluseq 2y ago
    At the moment the most bombed place in the world is probably Lebanon. What should be done to make sure Linux is not involved in this bombing of civilians? At the very least, we should figure out which military contractors are involved, and which countries they are from.
    - alkyon 2y ago
      This is whataboutism. Isreal maybe is not my cup of tea, but at least they have some justification for waging their war because they were attacked first. So Israel with all its faults is not in the same league with Russia. Edit: typo
  - keepamovin 2y ago
    Losing the sense of balance and proportionality, with everyone being equal, is what takes you down the road to war...Not good.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      The West was trying that. We were trading with Russia and so on. Russia invaded, and again, and again, and again.
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  > The war is obviously no fault of his. Citation needed.
  - keepamovin 2y ago
    Sure: see cite note [1] [1]: common sense

krick 2y ago

I mean, for me (as well as him, obviously) it is a matter of "how" rather than "what". It is understandable, that what for some government officials is political reasons, for Linux end up being legal reasons, so no matter how ugly it is, it is not surprising at all that it came down to banning somebody who works for a sanctioned organization. It also doesn't matter that it makes no sense whatsoever (after all, you don't have to show your documents applying to the Linux mailing list), since most adult people get the fact that there's no justice in life. But it is one thing when it's "sorry man, nothing I can do" (as in his private conversations with senior maintenaners), and other thing entirely, when for all your good work you are being dealt with like that, no heads-up, no good-bye, instead you get these things Linus has said today. Like, seriously, it doesn't even matter if Linus hates Russians and truly personally thinks this is desirable to get rid of these maintainers, it is just a matter of human decency to not make it any more than it has to be against individual person that basically worked for you (for free). And even if you don't have any human decency, it still just would be smarter to play it more neutral. So, yeah, it was really even surprisingly ugly.

keepamovin 2y ago
That’s sad, too. Sounds like you got caught up in this, nothing that’s your fault, as well. I’m sorry to hear it. I agree the how should have been way better implemented. For the human enterprises that they are it certainly seems like insufficient consideration is often paid to that. Better to have difficult conversations than pretend it will be okay and everyone will be fine. Sometimes people are just saving themselves by avoiding that. Unfortunately to the detriment of others!