5 ms·

I don't know how big these data centers are, but why don't they just build a power plant right next to it, dedicated and with underwire lines? I'm a fan of dec

by latch 14y ago

I don't know how big these data centers are, but why don't they just build a power plant right next to it, dedicated and with underwire lines? I'm a fan of decentralized power generation, and it would seem like large consumers would have the most to gain. Is this a regulation issue? I imagine Amazon becoming a provider of electricity (even if it's just to itself), can become a political mess.

robryan 14y ago
I would assume it would be a price issue more than anything.
- mjwalshe 14y ago
  Yes you have to be Govenment RnD to aford this the big widtunnels at one RAE establishment(twinwoods) in the UK had there own HT link to a local power plant. I suspect that Area 51 and the like do somthing similar. Though Google has sited one DC near a source of Hydro power not sure if they where running there own link to it or not.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    Hardly, large power hungry industrial plants are often located where power is easily available. For example, the aluminium smelter in Fort William in the UK has its own 85MW generating capacity: http://visit-fortwilliam.co.uk/rio-tinto-alcan-aluminium-smelter-in-fort-william-at-rio-tinto-alcan-works http://visit-fortwilliam.co.uk/rio-tinto-alcan-aluminium-sme...
    - rdl 14y ago
      There is a Rather Large hydro dam in Russia (Sayano-Shushenskaya) which was generating too much energy in times of heavy rain (too limited capacity to bring the excess to other markets), so they basically had to build an aluminum smelter there to add load.
    - mjwalshe 14y ago
      Au smelters are a some what special case though I take the point.
cperciva 14y ago
build a power plant right next to it, dedicated and with underwire lines They did, and it's called "backup generators". :-) More seriously, power plants go offline on a regular basis -- typical availability factors are around 90% due to the need for regular maintenance. You need to have a power grid in order to have any reasonable availability.
rdl 14y ago
People normally try to site big datacenters with dual high voltage feeds from separate substations. Taking down the entire grid causes many problems, and basically doesn't happen (it happened in the Northeast a few years ago....) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The problem is diesel generators basically suck, especially when left powered off. In the long run, I predict fuel cells will take over in the standby power market.
- gee_totes 14y ago
  In the short run, what's your alternative to diesel generators? I don't think they suck.
  - rdl 14y ago
    Dual HV grid feeds (from different grids, or really distinct parts of the same grid). I'll pay extra for datacenters with those. That will dramatically reduce the number of times you lose all utility power. Also, pick a utility which doesn't suck (which also saves you money); i.e. Silicon Valley Power instead of PG&E (which is why you see all the best datacenters in the Bay Area in the South...) There's no real current alternative to diesel generators for true standby power, but they still suck.
  - Hoff 14y ago
    Alternatives to diesel? Some sites use microturbines or full turbines, and various of the local backup generators are LP or LNG and not diesel. Neither diesel nor the gasoline blends are particularly stable during storage, unfortunately. Capstone claims a 10-second stabilization and transfer time for their microturbines, and has microturbines from tens of kilowatts up to a megawatt package. Con-Ed was (is?) running 155 MW and 174 MW turbines mounted on power barges, and they've had turbines around at least as far back as the 1920s. For some historical reading on turbine power generation: http://www.pondlucier.com/peakpower/blackstart/ http://www.pondlucier.com/peakpower/blackstart/ And yes, some of the fuel cell co-generation deployments look quite promising.
    - 14y ago
endersshadow 14y ago
I visited a large data center about five years ago, and they had a power plant on site. However, California has state regulations that they have to use a percentage of power from the utility company (i.e.-they can't go completely off grid).

by latch 14y ago

robryan 14y ago

I would assume it would be a price issue more than anything.

mjwalshe 14y ago
Yes you have to be Govenment RnD to aford this the big widtunnels at one RAE establishment(twinwoods) in the UK had there own HT link to a local power plant. I suspect that Area 51 and the like do somthing similar. Though Google has sited one DC near a source of Hydro power not sure if they where running there own link to it or not.
- arethuza 14y ago
  Hardly, large power hungry industrial plants are often located where power is easily available. For example, the aluminium smelter in Fort William in the UK has its own 85MW generating capacity: http://visit-fortwilliam.co.uk/rio-tinto-alcan-aluminium-smelter-in-fort-william-at-rio-tinto-alcan-works http://visit-fortwilliam.co.uk/rio-tinto-alcan-aluminium-sme...
  - rdl 14y ago
    There is a Rather Large hydro dam in Russia (Sayano-Shushenskaya) which was generating too much energy in times of heavy rain (too limited capacity to bring the excess to other markets), so they basically had to build an aluminum smelter there to add load.
  - mjwalshe 14y ago
    Au smelters are a some what special case though I take the point.

cperciva 14y ago

build a power plant right next to it, dedicated and with underwire lines They did, and it's called "backup generators". :-) More seriously, power plants go offline on a regular basis -- typical availability factors are around 90% due to the need for regular maintenance. You need to have a power grid in order to have any reasonable availability.

rdl 14y ago

People normally try to site big datacenters with dual high voltage feeds from separate substations. Taking down the entire grid causes many problems, and basically doesn't happen (it happened in the Northeast a few years ago....) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The problem is diesel generators basically suck, especially when left powered off. In the long run, I predict fuel cells will take over in the standby power market.

gee_totes 14y ago
In the short run, what's your alternative to diesel generators? I don't think they suck.
- rdl 14y ago
  Dual HV grid feeds (from different grids, or really distinct parts of the same grid). I'll pay extra for datacenters with those. That will dramatically reduce the number of times you lose all utility power. Also, pick a utility which doesn't suck (which also saves you money); i.e. Silicon Valley Power instead of PG&E (which is why you see all the best datacenters in the Bay Area in the South...) There's no real current alternative to diesel generators for true standby power, but they still suck.
- Hoff 14y ago
  Alternatives to diesel? Some sites use microturbines or full turbines, and various of the local backup generators are LP or LNG and not diesel. Neither diesel nor the gasoline blends are particularly stable during storage, unfortunately. Capstone claims a 10-second stabilization and transfer time for their microturbines, and has microturbines from tens of kilowatts up to a megawatt package. Con-Ed was (is?) running 155 MW and 174 MW turbines mounted on power barges, and they've had turbines around at least as far back as the 1920s. For some historical reading on turbine power generation: http://www.pondlucier.com/peakpower/blackstart/ http://www.pondlucier.com/peakpower/blackstart/ And yes, some of the fuel cell co-generation deployments look quite promising.
  - 14y ago

endersshadow 14y ago

I visited a large data center about five years ago, and they had a power plant on site. However, California has state regulations that they have to use a percentage of power from the utility company (i.e.-they can't go completely off grid).