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Why gate such a basic functionality for users in the European Union? People elsewhere do not have access to alternative app stores anyway. Is allowing them to u

Why gate such a basic functionality for users in the European Union? People elsewhere do not have access to alternative app stores anyway. Is allowing them to uninstall such apps too much?

stavros 2y ago
Because it doesn't benefit Apple to allow you to uninstall these apps.
- thimabi 2y ago
  I mean, on their own, many of the core apps probably don’t bring much revenue to Apple. I can understand their reluctance to allow uninstalling the App Store, but what do they gain by preventing someone from uninstalling the Camera, for instance? Those who want to do so will use an alternative app anyway.
  - _rs 2y ago
    Because you'll have users who do it by accident and lose basic hardware functionality of their device without knowing how to fix it
    - ronsor 2y ago
      I don't know why this is downvoted. There are definitely a ton of users who will accidentally delete the camera and then complain their phone is broken, wasting everyone's time.
      - kergonath 2y ago
        People have already apps they can delete. And when they do it by mistake, they just go to the App Store to download it again, wasting nobody’s time. Why would it be any different? There’s just need to be a button in the settings if the App Store itself is deleted.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - spacebanana7 2y ago
    Safari generates billions of dollars in revenue for Apple through the default search engine deal with Google.
    - thimabi 2y ago
      You’re right, I forgot about that.
    - latexr 2y ago
      Google lost an antitrust case specifically because of that, so doesn’t look like that’s a deal that can continue. https://www.ghacks.net/2024/08/07/u-s-judge-rules-that-google-has-an-illegal-search-engine-monopoly/ https://www.ghacks.net/2024/08/07/u-s-judge-rules-that-googl...
  - LordKeren 2y ago
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yapyap 2y ago
cause they dont need to, if Apple isn’t forced to give up their deathgrip on the user they won’t.
afavour 2y ago
Apple aren’t doing this out of the goodness of their own hearts, they’re being forced to by the EU. So unless their hand is being forced elsewhere they’re not going to do it.
- xp84 2y ago
  Yup. You can bet most developed countries will start to follow suit now. Remember Apple's argument before they exhausted their appeals with the EU was that they could never do any of this, and the sky would fall, and their whole business would be destroyed. Now, that will have been proven to be absolute poppycock as they begin to abide by all these regulations in this one (large) region. I expect regulators in Japan, UK, Australia, etc. will start to say "Yeah, we want that too." And Apple has zero plausible argument left for why consumers everywhere else don't deserve or can't have the same level of choice. Obviously not in America though, since we don't have a functioning government, just an executive branch that doesn't have the support of Congress, and a judicial branch that believes strongly that only an act of Congress could create the authority needed to actually rein them in. And a Congress which would ideally like to avoid doing any legislating besides passing a continuing resolution or debt ceiling bill every now and then, since there's too much fundraising work to do.
- latexr 2y ago
  I think GP’s point is that in this case gating the feature is extra work with zero benefit for Apple², so why not just do it anyway³? ¹ At the very least more code and cases and testing where it could go wrong. ² Maybe reduced support calls? ³ Spite could be a reason.
  - afavour 2y ago
    Zero benefit? They get to keep a captive audience using the App Store. What's not to like?
    - latexr 2y ago
      That makes no sense. If you’re the type of person who’d want to delete the App Store app despite not having access to alternatives, you’re not someone who’d ever want it or use it or buy from it.
al_borland 2y ago
I’m sure a non-trivial number of users would delete apps that are required for basic functionality. Stopping them prevents support issues that could require resetting to factory settings, if they didn’t add some other way to get the App Store back.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  It is mentionned in the article that the apps that can be uninstall have a quick reinstall option in the settings.
  - SirMaster 2y ago
    Sounds anti-competitive to have special install options for your own apps right in the settings menu of the device... /s
- Teever 2y ago
  Is that really sufficient justification for stopping users from having more control over their device? Like should we really let the 'Grandma Finds the Internet'[0] meme be the reason that you and I can't make decisions for ourselves? Whatever cost savings that Apple has from avoiding support for these people is dwarfed by the money they make from stopping competitors to these apps from growing due to these control mechanisms. That's the real reason apple doesn't want to do this and has to be kicked dragging and screaming by the EU. [0] https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Grandma-Finds-The-Internet https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Grandma-Finds-The-Internet
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    > Is that really sufficient justification for stopping users from having more control over their device? People who want more control over their devices; have Android. Not all solutions need fit all desires.
    - Teever 2y ago
      That isn't enough. The public interest is served by the end users having more control over their devices than Android and Apple currently offer.
betaby 2y ago
Folks in USA/CA would remove Safari and then return phone to the carrier/Apple as defective. No, I'm not kidding. I saw that multiple times - Windows messed on laptop? Laptop within return window? Return it is!
- rty32 2y ago
  Eh, people return their devices because don't know how to correctly use them all the time, I don't see how it is different here. And people definitely don't need to intentionally do this -- in the US, most major retailers allow you to return opened products within the return window (although it could get complicated with so-called "activatable devices")
  - wtallis 2y ago
    It's not even a matter of whether the user knows how to use their device. I've seen plenty of Windows laptops shipped with a somewhat-broken software configuration out of the box, and on multiple occasions I've seen two "identical" machines fresh out of the box get offered different software updates with the end result that a few hours and several reboots later, one system is noticeably misbehaving.
  - betaby 2y ago
    > I don't see how it is different here. iPhones are almost 'idiot proof' for a lack of a better description. Allowing removal ( or rather hiding ) of the apps will 'break' that impression. I'm surely in favour of making iPhones/IPads general computers, but that not going to happen. Those legislations from EU are no help.
    - downWidOutaFite 2y ago
      i must be an idiot. As an iphone user for about a year i'm constantly confused what's happening or stuck on some screen or can't find what i need or mysteriously trigger some screen or popup.
    - xp84 2y ago
a2128 2y ago
Releasing it as a feature everywhere would require at least a bit of public explanation and might give the appearance that EU forced Apple into doing something good for everyone. Being petty and releasing the bare minimum georestricted only to EU requires no public explanation and gives more the appearance that this is some dumb law Apple was forced to comply with. At least that's probably their thinking.
- mrweasel 2y ago
  That is probably a more likely explanation that "because it would lose them money". I suspect that the number of people who are actively going to switch to a different App Store is minimal. Users can already install other browsers, even if they are still using WebView, same of messaging apps and I doubt that many would care to replace the camera app. Photos maybe, but is that really a huge lose for Apple? That saves them from storing your photos. People on HN is often assuming that people would leave the App Store in droves, if given to option. I really don't see that happening.
dgellow 2y ago
The EU forced them. Apple has been fighting pretty hard to not have to do any of these changes, it seems they gave up
space_oddity 2y ago
And push Apple to improve their default apps

Why gate such a basic functionality for users in the European Union? People elsewhere do not have access to alternative app stores anyway. Is allowing them to uninstall such apps too much?

stavros 2y ago

Because it doesn't benefit Apple to allow you to uninstall these apps.

thimabi 2y ago
I mean, on their own, many of the core apps probably don’t bring much revenue to Apple. I can understand their reluctance to allow uninstalling the App Store, but what do they gain by preventing someone from uninstalling the Camera, for instance? Those who want to do so will use an alternative app anyway.
- _rs 2y ago
  Because you'll have users who do it by accident and lose basic hardware functionality of their device without knowing how to fix it
  - ronsor 2y ago
    I don't know why this is downvoted. There are definitely a ton of users who will accidentally delete the camera and then complain their phone is broken, wasting everyone's time.
    - kergonath 2y ago
      People have already apps they can delete. And when they do it by mistake, they just go to the App Store to download it again, wasting nobody’s time. Why would it be any different? There’s just need to be a button in the settings if the App Store itself is deleted.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- spacebanana7 2y ago
  Safari generates billions of dollars in revenue for Apple through the default search engine deal with Google.
  - thimabi 2y ago
    You’re right, I forgot about that.
  - latexr 2y ago
    Google lost an antitrust case specifically because of that, so doesn’t look like that’s a deal that can continue. https://www.ghacks.net/2024/08/07/u-s-judge-rules-that-google-has-an-illegal-search-engine-monopoly/ https://www.ghacks.net/2024/08/07/u-s-judge-rules-that-googl...
- LordKeren 2y ago
  -

yapyap 2y ago

cause they dont need to, if Apple isn’t forced to give up their deathgrip on the user they won’t.

afavour 2y ago

Apple aren’t doing this out of the goodness of their own hearts, they’re being forced to by the EU. So unless their hand is being forced elsewhere they’re not going to do it.

xp84 2y ago
Yup. You can bet most developed countries will start to follow suit now. Remember Apple's argument before they exhausted their appeals with the EU was that they could never do any of this, and the sky would fall, and their whole business would be destroyed. Now, that will have been proven to be absolute poppycock as they begin to abide by all these regulations in this one (large) region. I expect regulators in Japan, UK, Australia, etc. will start to say "Yeah, we want that too." And Apple has zero plausible argument left for why consumers everywhere else don't deserve or can't have the same level of choice. Obviously not in America though, since we don't have a functioning government, just an executive branch that doesn't have the support of Congress, and a judicial branch that believes strongly that only an act of Congress could create the authority needed to actually rein them in. And a Congress which would ideally like to avoid doing any legislating besides passing a continuing resolution or debt ceiling bill every now and then, since there's too much fundraising work to do.
latexr 2y ago
I think GP’s point is that in this case gating the feature is extra work with zero benefit for Apple², so why not just do it anyway³? ¹ At the very least more code and cases and testing where it could go wrong. ² Maybe reduced support calls? ³ Spite could be a reason.
- afavour 2y ago
  Zero benefit? They get to keep a captive audience using the App Store. What's not to like?
  - latexr 2y ago
    That makes no sense. If you’re the type of person who’d want to delete the App Store app despite not having access to alternatives, you’re not someone who’d ever want it or use it or buy from it.

al_borland 2y ago

I’m sure a non-trivial number of users would delete apps that are required for basic functionality. Stopping them prevents support issues that could require resetting to factory settings, if they didn’t add some other way to get the App Store back.

prmoustache 2y ago
It is mentionned in the article that the apps that can be uninstall have a quick reinstall option in the settings.
- SirMaster 2y ago
  Sounds anti-competitive to have special install options for your own apps right in the settings menu of the device... /s
Teever 2y ago
Is that really sufficient justification for stopping users from having more control over their device? Like should we really let the 'Grandma Finds the Internet'[0] meme be the reason that you and I can't make decisions for ourselves? Whatever cost savings that Apple has from avoiding support for these people is dwarfed by the money they make from stopping competitors to these apps from growing due to these control mechanisms. That's the real reason apple doesn't want to do this and has to be kicked dragging and screaming by the EU. [0] https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Grandma-Finds-The-Internet https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Grandma-Finds-The-Internet
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  > Is that really sufficient justification for stopping users from having more control over their device? People who want more control over their devices; have Android. Not all solutions need fit all desires.
  - Teever 2y ago
    That isn't enough. The public interest is served by the end users having more control over their devices than Android and Apple currently offer.

betaby 2y ago

Folks in USA/CA would remove Safari and then return phone to the carrier/Apple as defective. No, I'm not kidding. I saw that multiple times - Windows messed on laptop? Laptop within return window? Return it is!

rty32 2y ago
Eh, people return their devices because don't know how to correctly use them all the time, I don't see how it is different here. And people definitely don't need to intentionally do this -- in the US, most major retailers allow you to return opened products within the return window (although it could get complicated with so-called "activatable devices")
- wtallis 2y ago
  It's not even a matter of whether the user knows how to use their device. I've seen plenty of Windows laptops shipped with a somewhat-broken software configuration out of the box, and on multiple occasions I've seen two "identical" machines fresh out of the box get offered different software updates with the end result that a few hours and several reboots later, one system is noticeably misbehaving.
- betaby 2y ago
  > I don't see how it is different here. iPhones are almost 'idiot proof' for a lack of a better description. Allowing removal ( or rather hiding ) of the apps will 'break' that impression. I'm surely in favour of making iPhones/IPads general computers, but that not going to happen. Those legislations from EU are no help.
  - downWidOutaFite 2y ago
    i must be an idiot. As an iphone user for about a year i'm constantly confused what's happening or stuck on some screen or can't find what i need or mysteriously trigger some screen or popup.
  - xp84 2y ago

a2128 2y ago

Releasing it as a feature everywhere would require at least a bit of public explanation and might give the appearance that EU forced Apple into doing something good for everyone. Being petty and releasing the bare minimum georestricted only to EU requires no public explanation and gives more the appearance that this is some dumb law Apple was forced to comply with. At least that's probably their thinking.

mrweasel 2y ago
That is probably a more likely explanation that "because it would lose them money". I suspect that the number of people who are actively going to switch to a different App Store is minimal. Users can already install other browsers, even if they are still using WebView, same of messaging apps and I doubt that many would care to replace the camera app. Photos maybe, but is that really a huge lose for Apple? That saves them from storing your photos. People on HN is often assuming that people would leave the App Store in droves, if given to option. I really don't see that happening.

dgellow 2y ago

The EU forced them. Apple has been fighting pretty hard to not have to do any of these changes, it seems they gave up

space_oddity 2y ago

And push Apple to improve their default apps