4 ms·

I think Linus has short temper and there are examples of his remarks that are borderline toxic (or cross the line), but this really isn't one of them. The situ

I think Linus has short temper and there are examples of his remarks that are borderline toxic (or cross the line), but this really isn't one of them. The situation is pretty clear and calmly explained by Linus in the quoted messages. They removed contributors from Russia. The main reason is that they were told by a lawyer that they need to do this due to international sanctions. The secondary reason appears to be that Linus is not a fan of what Russia is doing, and is OK with sending a message. They made a call and were immediately swarmed by people trying to argue geopolitics, law, personal responsibility, transparency, and so on - many of whom aren't regular kernel contributors. Linus responded that he's not going to argue, and I can't blame him: it's a software project, not a discussion club. Sometimes, maintainers make the call and you suck it up, leave, or fork it. This is just that.

gtsop 2y ago
[flagged]
- IntelMiner 2y ago
  The point is to put soft pressure on a nation across a wide series of avenues to (ideally) enact the desired change Would you rather we went and ripped the fiber cables out and completely disconnected Russia from the rest of the global internet?
  - gtsop 2y ago
    In what way is that a compliance reason? On what earth are you putting pressure by removing kudos from a list?
    - serf 2y ago
      you don't see why having the privileges revoked creates pressure? Well, let me chart it out simply : If you have something you like taken from you, but the captor is deaf to your complaints, you'll complain elsewhere. The concept here being : If the US state department/BIS/whoever won't consider your plight, maybe your own government will -- and given enough complaints perhaps it will direct their foreign policy to be more in-line with how the rest of the world would like them to play; thus allowing sanctions to be lightened or dropped. This is essentially the goal behind all sanctioning that isn't directly involved in economic/agricultural/military loss. The risk , of course, being that it prompts a schism entirely and promotes independence in the sanctioned state, similar to how mcdonalds vs. vkusno & tochka worked out so far.
      - fuoqi 2y ago
        In good faith I will just assume that you are incredibly naive. Go read discussions in the Russian IT communities [1] [2]. The overwhelming reaction is not "let's go overthrow Putin!", but strong negative reaction, loss of respect, and alienation towards Linus, even across those who explicitly against the war and Putin. [1]: https://habr.com/ru/news/852962/comments/ https://habr.com/ru/news/852962/comments/ [2]: https://www.linux.org.ru/news/linux-general/17766938/page3#comments https://www.linux.org.ru/news/linux-general/17766938/page3#c...
    - mingus88 2y ago
      The west has placed sanctions on Russia. This means western institutions will be penalized for doing business with Russia. Therefore, removing Russian contributors is how these institutions comply with the sanction. I’m struggling to understand how this is confusing to you. Sanctions place pressure on rogue governments by limiting access to our markets. We either comply with the sanctions or we get fined or worse.
      - fuoqi 2y ago
        Why it's done now when no new sweeping sanctions were introduced? Was Linux Foundation "circumventing" sanctions for many-many months? The US also has active sanctions targeting Huawei, but there is a fair number of people in the maintainers list with Huawei e-mails. Double standards much? UPD: As expected, downwotes is the only response to those questions.
        0dayz 2y ago
        If you think sanctions are placed and enforced with lightning speed in every situation then the answer is no. But you're just after whataboutism, since Huawei is decoupling from Linux themselves[1] [1] https://wccftech.com/huawei-harmonyos-next-to-remove-linux-and-android-source/ https://wccftech.com/huawei-harmonyos-next-to-remove-linux-a...
        jemmyw 2y ago
        The sanction lists are updated quite regularly. When it's reported in the media isn't when the sanctions actually start, and when you've forgotten about it isn't when they stop changing or increasing.
      - gtsop 2y ago
        You're struggling to understand a confusion that doesn't exist. That's why you struggle. Was there any business conducted with these maintainers? In case you live under a rock, these western "sanctions" have been extended to blocking even works of art (theaters, songs, etc) that have been made by Russian artists long before Putin was born. I know that it may be hard for the enterprneurial mind to understand that not everything in life is buisness, same as it is hard for a hammer to understand that not everything is nails. But in the real world, you know, the world were actual wars are happening and people are dying, not the world of markets, there is a hard propaganda from the West to block anything Russian on all matters that is so blinding, only someone with closed eyes cannot see it (and even they can sense it)
  - analognoise 2y ago
    Why not both?
- gtsop 2y ago
  I guess all the people who downvoted have a based analysis on how removing russians from contribution lists damages the war capacity of Russia and is not categorised under the notion of "propaganda".
  - mingus88 2y ago
    Sanctions are an economic tool. They damage the economy, and any impact on the war machine unfold as a consequence of that. Sanctions are a broad stroke. Nobody is claiming removing contributors from a list is striking a blow against the capacity of the red army. That’s asinine.
    - fuoqi 2y ago
      Not allowing unpaid labor of Russian developers in your software project somehow damages the Russian economy?
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        Yeah, this is what I don't get. Basically, the rest of the world is getting a bunch of free labor here, and also keeping these Russians busy doing this free labor that probably doesn't directly benefit Russia's war machine, rather than having them go get a job in the defense sector (or spend more time at work there). Edit: upon further reading, it seems that the free labor isn't being completely refused, but rather these peoples' maintainership status has been revoked, apparently because lawyers said it was necessary due to sanctions. So they can still contribute, but now they have to submit their patches through a maintainer just like any other regular contributor. And also apparently, all the people involved aren't just random nerds who happen to live in Russia, but rather are directly employed at Russian companies on the sanction list. So yeah, it kinda sucks, and probably feels like a slap in the face to them, but this is one of the harsh realities of international politics. At least it's not like back in the Soviet days when there was essentially zero contact between scientists and engineers on both sides and they couldn't collaborate on projects like this at all.
htk 2y ago
Absolutely. And regarding Linus' skepticism towards russian emails, my tiny hobby projects get tons of russian spam (and others), I can't imagine what Linux boards get. It must be really hard to trust new or infrequent users.
platinumrad 2y ago
"Calmly explained"? Linus is equating having maintainers from Russia with "supporting Russian aggression".
- thoroughburro 2y ago
  Yes, that is what sanctions are.
cr125rider 2y ago
Linus is a Finn. They have their own bloody history with Russian occupation. I can see how that would run deep. It certainly does, and rightfully so, in Finnish culture as a whole.
- me_me_me 2y ago
  The baltic states learned their lessons about russia enough times to know how they behave. And russia never changes the way they behave.
- d_milivojevic 2y ago
  So it's fine to be a racist if you hold historical grievances? Let me give you a clue: a Fin has no high moral ground when it comes to WWII, they were Nazi allies that had "work camps" where the death toll was on par with some Nazi death camps.
ktosobcy 2y ago
[flagged]
- grepz 2y ago
  That could be said about just any nation with history. Poland included. Trying to simplify everything based on current historic moment(Russia's agression towards Ukraine) maybe the one thing that makes possible for wars to start in the first place. I am happen to have both polish and russian roots and know quite well how both sides can describe the very same historic event diametrically opposed. Russia may be unique in the sense that its a large country with lots of resources to inflict damage on its neighbours. And maybe one of few big powers that are still more or less left intact after the WWI/II.
  - ktosobcy 2y ago
    > Trying to simplify everything based on current historic moment(Russia's agression towards Ukraine) maybe the one thing that makes possible for wars to start in the first place. Ah yes... so we should pat brave Russians on the back because anything else, let me check the notes... "makes possible for wars to start"... Becase there is no war, only "special military operation", got it. PS. It's cute that 10y old account with almost no activity now suddenly decided to reactivate itself to comment :D

gtsop 2y ago

[flagged]

IntelMiner 2y ago
The point is to put soft pressure on a nation across a wide series of avenues to (ideally) enact the desired change Would you rather we went and ripped the fiber cables out and completely disconnected Russia from the rest of the global internet?
- gtsop 2y ago
  In what way is that a compliance reason? On what earth are you putting pressure by removing kudos from a list?
  - serf 2y ago
    you don't see why having the privileges revoked creates pressure? Well, let me chart it out simply : If you have something you like taken from you, but the captor is deaf to your complaints, you'll complain elsewhere. The concept here being : If the US state department/BIS/whoever won't consider your plight, maybe your own government will -- and given enough complaints perhaps it will direct their foreign policy to be more in-line with how the rest of the world would like them to play; thus allowing sanctions to be lightened or dropped. This is essentially the goal behind all sanctioning that isn't directly involved in economic/agricultural/military loss. The risk , of course, being that it prompts a schism entirely and promotes independence in the sanctioned state, similar to how mcdonalds vs. vkusno & tochka worked out so far.
    - fuoqi 2y ago
      In good faith I will just assume that you are incredibly naive. Go read discussions in the Russian IT communities [1] [2]. The overwhelming reaction is not "let's go overthrow Putin!", but strong negative reaction, loss of respect, and alienation towards Linus, even across those who explicitly against the war and Putin. [1]: https://habr.com/ru/news/852962/comments/ https://habr.com/ru/news/852962/comments/ [2]: https://www.linux.org.ru/news/linux-general/17766938/page3#comments https://www.linux.org.ru/news/linux-general/17766938/page3#c...
  - mingus88 2y ago
    The west has placed sanctions on Russia. This means western institutions will be penalized for doing business with Russia. Therefore, removing Russian contributors is how these institutions comply with the sanction. I’m struggling to understand how this is confusing to you. Sanctions place pressure on rogue governments by limiting access to our markets. We either comply with the sanctions or we get fined or worse.
    - fuoqi 2y ago
      Why it's done now when no new sweeping sanctions were introduced? Was Linux Foundation "circumventing" sanctions for many-many months? The US also has active sanctions targeting Huawei, but there is a fair number of people in the maintainers list with Huawei e-mails. Double standards much? UPD: As expected, downwotes is the only response to those questions.
      - 0dayz 2y ago
        If you think sanctions are placed and enforced with lightning speed in every situation then the answer is no. But you're just after whataboutism, since Huawei is decoupling from Linux themselves[1] [1] https://wccftech.com/huawei-harmonyos-next-to-remove-linux-and-android-source/ https://wccftech.com/huawei-harmonyos-next-to-remove-linux-a...
      - jemmyw 2y ago
        The sanction lists are updated quite regularly. When it's reported in the media isn't when the sanctions actually start, and when you've forgotten about it isn't when they stop changing or increasing.
    - gtsop 2y ago
      You're struggling to understand a confusion that doesn't exist. That's why you struggle. Was there any business conducted with these maintainers? In case you live under a rock, these western "sanctions" have been extended to blocking even works of art (theaters, songs, etc) that have been made by Russian artists long before Putin was born. I know that it may be hard for the enterprneurial mind to understand that not everything in life is buisness, same as it is hard for a hammer to understand that not everything is nails. But in the real world, you know, the world were actual wars are happening and people are dying, not the world of markets, there is a hard propaganda from the West to block anything Russian on all matters that is so blinding, only someone with closed eyes cannot see it (and even they can sense it)
- analognoise 2y ago
  Why not both?
gtsop 2y ago
I guess all the people who downvoted have a based analysis on how removing russians from contribution lists damages the war capacity of Russia and is not categorised under the notion of "propaganda".
- mingus88 2y ago
  Sanctions are an economic tool. They damage the economy, and any impact on the war machine unfold as a consequence of that. Sanctions are a broad stroke. Nobody is claiming removing contributors from a list is striking a blow against the capacity of the red army. That’s asinine.
  - fuoqi 2y ago
    Not allowing unpaid labor of Russian developers in your software project somehow damages the Russian economy?
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      Yeah, this is what I don't get. Basically, the rest of the world is getting a bunch of free labor here, and also keeping these Russians busy doing this free labor that probably doesn't directly benefit Russia's war machine, rather than having them go get a job in the defense sector (or spend more time at work there). Edit: upon further reading, it seems that the free labor isn't being completely refused, but rather these peoples' maintainership status has been revoked, apparently because lawyers said it was necessary due to sanctions. So they can still contribute, but now they have to submit their patches through a maintainer just like any other regular contributor. And also apparently, all the people involved aren't just random nerds who happen to live in Russia, but rather are directly employed at Russian companies on the sanction list. So yeah, it kinda sucks, and probably feels like a slap in the face to them, but this is one of the harsh realities of international politics. At least it's not like back in the Soviet days when there was essentially zero contact between scientists and engineers on both sides and they couldn't collaborate on projects like this at all.

htk 2y ago

Absolutely. And regarding Linus' skepticism towards russian emails, my tiny hobby projects get tons of russian spam (and others), I can't imagine what Linux boards get. It must be really hard to trust new or infrequent users.

platinumrad 2y ago

"Calmly explained"? Linus is equating having maintainers from Russia with "supporting Russian aggression".

thoroughburro 2y ago
Yes, that is what sanctions are.

cr125rider 2y ago

Linus is a Finn. They have their own bloody history with Russian occupation. I can see how that would run deep. It certainly does, and rightfully so, in Finnish culture as a whole.

me_me_me 2y ago
The baltic states learned their lessons about russia enough times to know how they behave. And russia never changes the way they behave.
d_milivojevic 2y ago
So it's fine to be a racist if you hold historical grievances? Let me give you a clue: a Fin has no high moral ground when it comes to WWII, they were Nazi allies that had "work camps" where the death toll was on par with some Nazi death camps.

ktosobcy 2y ago

[flagged]

grepz 2y ago
That could be said about just any nation with history. Poland included. Trying to simplify everything based on current historic moment(Russia's agression towards Ukraine) maybe the one thing that makes possible for wars to start in the first place. I am happen to have both polish and russian roots and know quite well how both sides can describe the very same historic event diametrically opposed. Russia may be unique in the sense that its a large country with lots of resources to inflict damage on its neighbours. And maybe one of few big powers that are still more or less left intact after the WWI/II.
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  > Trying to simplify everything based on current historic moment(Russia's agression towards Ukraine) maybe the one thing that makes possible for wars to start in the first place. Ah yes... so we should pat brave Russians on the back because anything else, let me check the notes... "makes possible for wars to start"... Becase there is no war, only "special military operation", got it. PS. It's cute that 10y old account with almost no activity now suddenly decided to reactivate itself to comment :D