4 ms·

More women attempt suicide, but more men successfully complete the attempt. The reason is because men often choose more lethal methods like guns, where more wom

More women attempt suicide, but more men successfully complete the attempt. The reason is because men often choose more lethal methods like guns, where more women choose less lethal methods like drugs. When talking about how to help reduce suicide it's not unreasonable to discuss methods. Also, I doubt most medicine cabinets have lethal doses of drugs, but I don't have any data to back up that assumption. If this person actually thought dying would allow them to connect with a chatbot, I don't think they should have easy access to a weapon, and suicide is only one of the reasons for that. This child is dead, and I see no reason to suspect the chatbot is directly involved in the reason, where the weapon is clearly directly involved. Given that's the method they chose, I'd hope we could take preventive measures to reduce needless deaths from guns. So then and only then we can start on needless deaths from overdose. I believe we should solve the largest problem first. Do more children die from guns or from an overdose?

dmitrygr 2y ago
I searched in vain for a correlation between suicide rates by country and gun ownership rates by country. Nothing... Yours is an argument of the form: "He was stabbed by a knife. Do let's not talk about why, let's just make it harder to get a knife, since that is how he died." Maybe gun access should be harder, maybe it should not. That is not relevant. The issue is that an impressionable youth was talked into suicide by an LLM and nobody stopped it! Not LLM vendors making money on the interaction, not governments who keep jabbering about protecting youth online, not parents who should have cared enough to take an interest. Even if you took away guns, knives, and letter openers, people would kill themselves (see those stats i mentioned). And from now on, we also have to worry that LLMs will keep talking them into it, unless the actual issue is fixed.
- grayhatter 2y ago
  > He was stabbed by a knife. Do let's not talk about why, let's just make it harder to get a knife, since that is how he died. > [The] issue is that an impressionable youth was talked into suicide by an LLM and nobody stopped it. Right, that is the issue. Except, I disagree there's enough evidence for a reasonable person to conclude that the chatbot talked him into shooting himself. Where as there is plenty of evidence that a child with symptoms of depression had uncontrolled access to a loaded firearm. But to the strawman representation of my argument, let's talk about both? Unless the chatbot suggested he should kill himself, I don't think the chatbot is the problem in this example. Did it? or did it just repeat a banal agreement to some non-violent fantasy? Then, if my assumption is correct, that the chatbot didn't try to talk him into it. What other steps are there that could have prevented this suicide?
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    > What other steps are there that could have prevented this suicide? Parenting and bans on all girlfriend/boyfriend like LLMs for under-18s, like we control access to other dangerous and mind altering substances and objects.
    - grayhatter 2y ago
      I don't think I'm ever going to agree to the argument that access to information should be banned. But hypothetically is this ban just for people under 18? What about the other risks? The vast majority of phishing targets are old generations? Would you say we should also ban access to LLMs to people over 55 as well? If someone could talked into suicide, they could probably also be talked into into drinking, shouldn't that ban on LLMs extend to 21?
      - dmitrygr 2y ago
        We allow adults agency and that should stay IMHO
- mindslight 2y ago
  As a parent, my job is to make it hard to get ahold of guns, knives, and what's traditionally in the medicine cabinet, believe it or not. As a gun owner, the original criticism is quite valid as a contributing cause. Firearms have been socialized by mass media as being complete toys, and the idea that it's reasonable to just have them sitting around your house where your kids can access them in their own developing child context is just nuts. And it's not really sustainable to be reflexively against the idea of every type of regulation, especially ones for setting responsible normative behavior.
- wruza 2y ago
  The issue is that an impressionable youth was talked into suicide by an LLM and nobody stopped it! We don’t know how much an LLM was actually involved. You can’t just talk someone normal into it, you have to drag their neck to that cliff. Talking only works for those already on the edge. It could be yet another rejection or fall or a dead cat on the road. But it was an LLM chat. Oh, easy, that’s the culprit! Why a person was on the edge in the first place interests no one. It’s a wicked game, we ignore them walking onto it, but when it comes to jumping, we are like nooo, wait, don’t. Put a fence and pat ourselves on the back - saved a life today. As if eternal suffering on the edge was the ultimate goal of life saving.
AStonesThrow 2y ago
No, the reason that more men succeed in committing suicide is because the men who try are actually serious about it. Women who "attempt suicide" are often sending out a cry for help. The people who half-heartedly try something need and want the attention. They want to make a mess and have people rush in and care for them. They want to put a punctuation mark on the drama that is occurring in their life and elicit some change. The men who are shooting themselves just want to get out of their suffering and finish themselves off. They don't want more attention or more help. It's sometimes not easy to slink off and quietly commit suicide before someone intervenes. Someone who succeeds in this task is "dead serious" about dying, not summoning help, or causing more drama. That's the whole reasoning behind the methods and the severity of attempts. Perhaps there is a gender divide, but only because of the differing motives and end goals.
- zosima 2y ago
  I fail to see why this is downvoted. Many suicide attempts, especially by women, are obviously not serious but rather a cry for help. This is well-known and obvious to anyone having experience with these patients. Male suicide attempts are on average more serious and generally a lot more succesful. And that is with or without access to guns.
  - grayhatter 2y ago
    > I fail to see why this is downvoted. it's missing the point of the refutation. It's also needless demeaning. it's also wrong. As a rule, a suicide attempt is always to end or reduce their suffering. (even 'fake attempts' where the self harm behavior is primarily attention seeking with something obviously not lethal) > Many suicide attempts, especially by women, are obviously not serious but rather a cry for help. This is well-known and obvious to anyone having experience with these patients. This is only true when you are including 'apparent attempts, with actual attempts. The desire to die is often fleeting, if you choose a quick acting method such as guns, you're not given a chance to change your mind. If you choose to overdose, you're given the opportunity to reconsider, and because it's not instantly fatal, you're able to seek help. This is well known and obvious to anyone working with these patients. It's also taught in every single therapeutic psych class I've even had, that disregarding the experiences in the way you describe it is actively harmful, so I really hope you're not currently working with these patients if that's the most compassion and patience you're able to evoke. > Male suicide attempts are on average more serious and generally a lot more succesful. And that is with or without access to guns. This isn't something I've heard (but I'm also no longer in psych) do you have a citation I might be able to search for, (other than the obvious keywords?)

dmitrygr 2y ago

I searched in vain for a correlation between suicide rates by country and gun ownership rates by country. Nothing... Yours is an argument of the form: "He was stabbed by a knife. Do let's not talk about why, let's just make it harder to get a knife, since that is how he died." Maybe gun access should be harder, maybe it should not. That is not relevant. The issue is that an impressionable youth was talked into suicide by an LLM and nobody stopped it! Not LLM vendors making money on the interaction, not governments who keep jabbering about protecting youth online, not parents who should have cared enough to take an interest. Even if you took away guns, knives, and letter openers, people would kill themselves (see those stats i mentioned). And from now on, we also have to worry that LLMs will keep talking them into it, unless the actual issue is fixed.

grayhatter 2y ago
> He was stabbed by a knife. Do let's not talk about why, let's just make it harder to get a knife, since that is how he died. > [The] issue is that an impressionable youth was talked into suicide by an LLM and nobody stopped it. Right, that is the issue. Except, I disagree there's enough evidence for a reasonable person to conclude that the chatbot talked him into shooting himself. Where as there is plenty of evidence that a child with symptoms of depression had uncontrolled access to a loaded firearm. But to the strawman representation of my argument, let's talk about both? Unless the chatbot suggested he should kill himself, I don't think the chatbot is the problem in this example. Did it? or did it just repeat a banal agreement to some non-violent fantasy? Then, if my assumption is correct, that the chatbot didn't try to talk him into it. What other steps are there that could have prevented this suicide?
- dmitrygr 2y ago
  > What other steps are there that could have prevented this suicide? Parenting and bans on all girlfriend/boyfriend like LLMs for under-18s, like we control access to other dangerous and mind altering substances and objects.
  - grayhatter 2y ago
    I don't think I'm ever going to agree to the argument that access to information should be banned. But hypothetically is this ban just for people under 18? What about the other risks? The vast majority of phishing targets are old generations? Would you say we should also ban access to LLMs to people over 55 as well? If someone could talked into suicide, they could probably also be talked into into drinking, shouldn't that ban on LLMs extend to 21?
    - dmitrygr 2y ago
      We allow adults agency and that should stay IMHO
mindslight 2y ago
As a parent, my job is to make it hard to get ahold of guns, knives, and what's traditionally in the medicine cabinet, believe it or not. As a gun owner, the original criticism is quite valid as a contributing cause. Firearms have been socialized by mass media as being complete toys, and the idea that it's reasonable to just have them sitting around your house where your kids can access them in their own developing child context is just nuts. And it's not really sustainable to be reflexively against the idea of every type of regulation, especially ones for setting responsible normative behavior.
wruza 2y ago
The issue is that an impressionable youth was talked into suicide by an LLM and nobody stopped it! We don’t know how much an LLM was actually involved. You can’t just talk someone normal into it, you have to drag their neck to that cliff. Talking only works for those already on the edge. It could be yet another rejection or fall or a dead cat on the road. But it was an LLM chat. Oh, easy, that’s the culprit! Why a person was on the edge in the first place interests no one. It’s a wicked game, we ignore them walking onto it, but when it comes to jumping, we are like nooo, wait, don’t. Put a fence and pat ourselves on the back - saved a life today. As if eternal suffering on the edge was the ultimate goal of life saving.

AStonesThrow 2y ago

No, the reason that more men succeed in committing suicide is because the men who try are actually serious about it. Women who "attempt suicide" are often sending out a cry for help. The people who half-heartedly try something need and want the attention. They want to make a mess and have people rush in and care for them. They want to put a punctuation mark on the drama that is occurring in their life and elicit some change. The men who are shooting themselves just want to get out of their suffering and finish themselves off. They don't want more attention or more help. It's sometimes not easy to slink off and quietly commit suicide before someone intervenes. Someone who succeeds in this task is "dead serious" about dying, not summoning help, or causing more drama. That's the whole reasoning behind the methods and the severity of attempts. Perhaps there is a gender divide, but only because of the differing motives and end goals.

zosima 2y ago
I fail to see why this is downvoted. Many suicide attempts, especially by women, are obviously not serious but rather a cry for help. This is well-known and obvious to anyone having experience with these patients. Male suicide attempts are on average more serious and generally a lot more succesful. And that is with or without access to guns.
- grayhatter 2y ago
  > I fail to see why this is downvoted. it's missing the point of the refutation. It's also needless demeaning. it's also wrong. As a rule, a suicide attempt is always to end or reduce their suffering. (even 'fake attempts' where the self harm behavior is primarily attention seeking with something obviously not lethal) > Many suicide attempts, especially by women, are obviously not serious but rather a cry for help. This is well-known and obvious to anyone having experience with these patients. This is only true when you are including 'apparent attempts, with actual attempts. The desire to die is often fleeting, if you choose a quick acting method such as guns, you're not given a chance to change your mind. If you choose to overdose, you're given the opportunity to reconsider, and because it's not instantly fatal, you're able to seek help. This is well known and obvious to anyone working with these patients. It's also taught in every single therapeutic psych class I've even had, that disregarding the experiences in the way you describe it is actively harmful, so I really hope you're not currently working with these patients if that's the most compassion and patience you're able to evoke. > Male suicide attempts are on average more serious and generally a lot more succesful. And that is with or without access to guns. This isn't something I've heard (but I'm also no longer in psych) do you have a citation I might be able to search for, (other than the obvious keywords?)