5 ms·

I'm badly split on Institute for Justice, the nonprofit backing this suit. On the one hand, they aggressively advocate for obvious constitutional rights cases

I'm badly split on Institute for Justice, the nonprofit backing this suit. On the one hand, they aggressively advocate for obvious constitutional rights cases like this one and have put a lot of effort into fighting legally-accepted-yet-fundamentally-nonsensical practices like civil forfeiture. On the other, they also aggressively support school vouchers, which are mostly a scheme to drain money from public schools into private ones that can use broad excuses to keep out students that would cost more or lower their grade averages.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
It’s almost like democracy involves coalition building and compromise, where absolute positions are anathema.
- lazyeye 2y ago
  Yes the idea that the govt is the best at everything (let alone schooling...)
  - ckemere 2y ago
    I think that few (no?) people oppose vouchers on the theory that private schools provide an inferior education to public schools. They oppose them because most proposals would not (a) require private schools to accept the voucher as full tuition and fees and (b) require private schools to educate everyone regardless of disability, belief, etc. As currently posed, the voucher is a subsidy to already wealthy people who can afford to supplement the voucher with extra $$ to pay for their children’s education.
    - danaris 2y ago
      > I think that few (no?) people oppose vouchers on the theory that private schools provide an inferior education to public schools. Frankly, I don't actually buy that all private schools are necessarily superior to public schools. You're probably just thinking of elite private schools, of the type that rich people in NYC want to send their kids to, but there are plenty of other kinds of private schools out there. The degree to which they have to meet any standards at all vary by jurisdiction. Some are explicitly religious, and will not be teaching accurate history or biology because of that. Some are based on experimental (to put it kindly) pedagogical theories that are not well-grounded in research or evidence (but have some wealthy people willing to buy into them). Just because it costs more money to go to does not remotely guarantee that it will provide a better education.
  - pixl97 2y ago
    Once you grow up around a bunch of home schooled kids that only learned a bit of the Bible you begin to realize that having a wide ranging education across a bunch of topics is important to create people that aren't total gibbering idiots.
    - busterarm 2y ago
      I've worked with a lot of engineers over the years who started off home schooled. Mostly they were from rural areas though. Interestingly, I work with a lot of people who do have a stay-at-home partner and homeschool their kids in large cities.
      - consteval 2y ago
        There's a big risk in social development for those who are home schooled. Most developers I've met are severely lacking in social skills, so they're maybe not the best group to use as an example. In my personal experience, I haven't met a single home school adult who was well-adjusted. I have met some who became well-adjusted after working a demanding enough job (I used to work in a kitchen). I don't think software engineering is nearly demanding enough for that kind of development.
    - lazyeye 2y ago
      Of course, and equally you can cherry-pick the products of public schools who are also gibbering idiots and don't have even basic levels of literacy.
Suppafly 2y ago
I'm not a fan of vouchers in general, especially if they allow public funds to go to religious institutions, but educational choice (as IJ terms it) is a tricky area. A lot of times these programs allow people to move between public schools or get additional funds for alternative programs that better suit their children's needs.
- crisdux 2y ago
  Why shouldn't finds go to religious institutions? I lived in a western country that allows public funding for religious schools, which I attended while growing up. The schools are still fulfilling a public need of educating students. Is it because they are religious?
  - pixl97 2y ago
    Depends if the school is serious about educating students or being a weird ass cult. In the US we have issues with cults throughout our history.
  - riskable 2y ago
    It's quite simple, really: The government shouldn't be giving money to religious institutions because that would be, "respecting an establishment of religion". You could argue that the 1st Amendment only applies to laws written by Congress and not the whims of state governments but the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that it does extend downwards like that. Then again, the Supreme Court also ruled that if a state does decide to subsidize private education it can't discriminate based on religion VS non-religion (Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue). The bigger argument: By allowing a state to fund religious institutions (educational or not) you're basically granting the state great power over religious institutions (as well as taking non-sectarian money and giving it to sectarian causes). A governor or powerful congressman/regulator could demand all sorts of concessions from religious institutions or their funding could be withheld or reduced. In other words, it gives the government direct (and/or indirect) influence over the religion itself.
    - 2y ago
gs17 2y ago
I'm willing to accept that the 90% of what they do that's things I really really agree with comes with some things I don't like as much. They're willing to take on cases like https://ij.org/case/florida-cultivated-meat-ban/ https://ij.org/case/florida-cultivated-meat-ban/ too.
busterarm 2y ago
So you're saying you don't want parents to have the choice to send their children to better performing schools and provide better opportunities for their children? Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? Having gone to both public and private schools, while I had horrible experiences with both, at least there was teaching going on in my private schools. My public school experience was horrific, even in NYC's so-called "gifted" schools. My brother's kid only went to NYC public schools and her experiences were so much worse. My public school tried to have me put on psychiatric medication without a diagnosis from a qualified professional and my niece's public school spent two years trying to gaslight her that she was not gay but trans (as well as a whole bunch targeted harassment from her teachers for being vocally politically conservative). Neither of those things have anything to do with what the schools' mandate should be: education.
- danaris 2y ago
  > Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? No: I don't think anyone should have the option of private schools. Yes, I think public education should be mandatory in the US. That way, when there are problems with the public school system in a given area, rather than just pulling their own children—and money—out, the rich people would be personally incentivized to find ways to make it better for everyone.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    One of the things that I am most thankful for as am American is that we're not living in an authoritarian hellhole where the state-offered solution is the only solution. As a kid my option was to be forcibly medicated by some random tyrant bureaucrat or not be allowed to attend school. I had no disorder or diagnosis that required this. Luckily I was able to escape to private school. More importantly, children are not one-size-fits-all in terms of learning requirements or ability, but public schools only provide one-size-fits-all opportunity.
    - consteval 2y ago
      > public schools only provide one-size-fits-all opportunity This isn't true - there's many specialty public schools. Schools for the deaf, schools for the blind, schools for those with severe learning disabilities. The core issue with private education is it gives richer people an incentive to screw over public schools, which is exactly what we're seeing. They're greedy, it's not just enough for them to have private schools. They also have to siphon money from public schools, which hurts poorer Americans. In theory, private schools could be fine. But when we give millions of public dollars to private schools, we have a huge problem.
crisdux 2y ago
In communities near me, recent expansions of school vouchers has been a game changer. Public schools are struggling and private schools give students a much better education. Public schools were failing well before private school vouchers existed.
- linuxlizard 2y ago
  Are the private schools forced to take any students? Or can they cherry pick just the best students? Do they reject anyone that needs an IEP? Public schools are legally obligated to provide an education to anyone, no matter how much trouble they cause. If these private schools take public coin, they should be required to follow the same laws.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    When an airplane loses compression they instruct you to put your own mask on before you assist with other peoples'. School should be the same way. Education should not be lowest-common-denominator. My kids should not have less opportunity because other kids have greater challenges. Operating that way is ethical and humane.
    - eesmith 2y ago
      Why should my tax dollars go to have your kids attend a non-public school, rather than the ones needing oxygen at a public one?
      - busterarm 2y ago
        It's the same tax dollars. It's paying for kids to go to school. That's a public good. You want society to do this. Why should your tax dollars only go to schools controlled by the state? Do you care that public schools in the US typically have worse outcomes and have to spend more per child to get there?
        frumper 2y ago
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Im a huge fan of constitutional rights and school vouchers, so I should look into them. If public schools are less desirable, we should celebrate that the money is going elsewhere.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

It’s almost like democracy involves coalition building and compromise, where absolute positions are anathema.

lazyeye 2y ago
Yes the idea that the govt is the best at everything (let alone schooling...)
- ckemere 2y ago
  I think that few (no?) people oppose vouchers on the theory that private schools provide an inferior education to public schools. They oppose them because most proposals would not (a) require private schools to accept the voucher as full tuition and fees and (b) require private schools to educate everyone regardless of disability, belief, etc. As currently posed, the voucher is a subsidy to already wealthy people who can afford to supplement the voucher with extra $$ to pay for their children’s education.
  - danaris 2y ago
    > I think that few (no?) people oppose vouchers on the theory that private schools provide an inferior education to public schools. Frankly, I don't actually buy that all private schools are necessarily superior to public schools. You're probably just thinking of elite private schools, of the type that rich people in NYC want to send their kids to, but there are plenty of other kinds of private schools out there. The degree to which they have to meet any standards at all vary by jurisdiction. Some are explicitly religious, and will not be teaching accurate history or biology because of that. Some are based on experimental (to put it kindly) pedagogical theories that are not well-grounded in research or evidence (but have some wealthy people willing to buy into them). Just because it costs more money to go to does not remotely guarantee that it will provide a better education.
- pixl97 2y ago
  Once you grow up around a bunch of home schooled kids that only learned a bit of the Bible you begin to realize that having a wide ranging education across a bunch of topics is important to create people that aren't total gibbering idiots.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    I've worked with a lot of engineers over the years who started off home schooled. Mostly they were from rural areas though. Interestingly, I work with a lot of people who do have a stay-at-home partner and homeschool their kids in large cities.
    - consteval 2y ago
      There's a big risk in social development for those who are home schooled. Most developers I've met are severely lacking in social skills, so they're maybe not the best group to use as an example. In my personal experience, I haven't met a single home school adult who was well-adjusted. I have met some who became well-adjusted after working a demanding enough job (I used to work in a kitchen). I don't think software engineering is nearly demanding enough for that kind of development.
  - lazyeye 2y ago
    Of course, and equally you can cherry-pick the products of public schools who are also gibbering idiots and don't have even basic levels of literacy.

Suppafly 2y ago

I'm not a fan of vouchers in general, especially if they allow public funds to go to religious institutions, but educational choice (as IJ terms it) is a tricky area. A lot of times these programs allow people to move between public schools or get additional funds for alternative programs that better suit their children's needs.

crisdux 2y ago
Why shouldn't finds go to religious institutions? I lived in a western country that allows public funding for religious schools, which I attended while growing up. The schools are still fulfilling a public need of educating students. Is it because they are religious?
- pixl97 2y ago
  Depends if the school is serious about educating students or being a weird ass cult. In the US we have issues with cults throughout our history.
- riskable 2y ago
  It's quite simple, really: The government shouldn't be giving money to religious institutions because that would be, "respecting an establishment of religion". You could argue that the 1st Amendment only applies to laws written by Congress and not the whims of state governments but the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that it does extend downwards like that. Then again, the Supreme Court also ruled that if a state does decide to subsidize private education it can't discriminate based on religion VS non-religion (Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue). The bigger argument: By allowing a state to fund religious institutions (educational or not) you're basically granting the state great power over religious institutions (as well as taking non-sectarian money and giving it to sectarian causes). A governor or powerful congressman/regulator could demand all sorts of concessions from religious institutions or their funding could be withheld or reduced. In other words, it gives the government direct (and/or indirect) influence over the religion itself.
  - 2y ago

gs17 2y ago

I'm willing to accept that the 90% of what they do that's things I really really agree with comes with some things I don't like as much. They're willing to take on cases like https://ij.org/case/florida-cultivated-meat-ban/ https://ij.org/case/florida-cultivated-meat-ban/ too.

busterarm 2y ago

So you're saying you don't want parents to have the choice to send their children to better performing schools and provide better opportunities for their children? Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? Having gone to both public and private schools, while I had horrible experiences with both, at least there was teaching going on in my private schools. My public school experience was horrific, even in NYC's so-called "gifted" schools. My brother's kid only went to NYC public schools and her experiences were so much worse. My public school tried to have me put on psychiatric medication without a diagnosis from a qualified professional and my niece's public school spent two years trying to gaslight her that she was not gay but trans (as well as a whole bunch targeted harassment from her teachers for being vocally politically conservative). Neither of those things have anything to do with what the schools' mandate should be: education.

danaris 2y ago
> Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? No: I don't think anyone should have the option of private schools. Yes, I think public education should be mandatory in the US. That way, when there are problems with the public school system in a given area, rather than just pulling their own children—and money—out, the rich people would be personally incentivized to find ways to make it better for everyone.
- busterarm 2y ago
  One of the things that I am most thankful for as am American is that we're not living in an authoritarian hellhole where the state-offered solution is the only solution. As a kid my option was to be forcibly medicated by some random tyrant bureaucrat or not be allowed to attend school. I had no disorder or diagnosis that required this. Luckily I was able to escape to private school. More importantly, children are not one-size-fits-all in terms of learning requirements or ability, but public schools only provide one-size-fits-all opportunity.
  - consteval 2y ago
    > public schools only provide one-size-fits-all opportunity This isn't true - there's many specialty public schools. Schools for the deaf, schools for the blind, schools for those with severe learning disabilities. The core issue with private education is it gives richer people an incentive to screw over public schools, which is exactly what we're seeing. They're greedy, it's not just enough for them to have private schools. They also have to siphon money from public schools, which hurts poorer Americans. In theory, private schools could be fine. But when we give millions of public dollars to private schools, we have a huge problem.

crisdux 2y ago

In communities near me, recent expansions of school vouchers has been a game changer. Public schools are struggling and private schools give students a much better education. Public schools were failing well before private school vouchers existed.

linuxlizard 2y ago
Are the private schools forced to take any students? Or can they cherry pick just the best students? Do they reject anyone that needs an IEP? Public schools are legally obligated to provide an education to anyone, no matter how much trouble they cause. If these private schools take public coin, they should be required to follow the same laws.
- busterarm 2y ago
  When an airplane loses compression they instruct you to put your own mask on before you assist with other peoples'. School should be the same way. Education should not be lowest-common-denominator. My kids should not have less opportunity because other kids have greater challenges. Operating that way is ethical and humane.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    Why should my tax dollars go to have your kids attend a non-public school, rather than the ones needing oxygen at a public one?
    - busterarm 2y ago
      It's the same tax dollars. It's paying for kids to go to school. That's a public good. You want society to do this. Why should your tax dollars only go to schools controlled by the state? Do you care that public schools in the US typically have worse outcomes and have to spend more per child to get there?
      - frumper 2y ago

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Im a huge fan of constitutional rights and school vouchers, so I should look into them. If public schools are less desirable, we should celebrate that the money is going elsewhere.