5 ms·

I'm struggling a little bit with the "misleading consumers into getting interest-free monthly payments" part. I never found the checkout flow particularly uncle

I'm struggling a little bit with the "misleading consumers into getting interest-free monthly payments" part. I never found the checkout flow particularly unclear or obtuse. It kind of sounds like consumers assumed that making a purchase with the apple card automatically enrolled you in the payment plan, versus having to go through a different checkout flow. I do kind of recall that when I used that feature once, it might have been implemented through Apple Pay? That would be supported by the fact that it was only available through Safari if the purchase was made online. I'm probably an outlier in being likely to experience that as I've just used Safari for a while, and so I'm getting their first-class experience. I am no stranger to how utterly awful Apple's products are outside its own ecosystem (like any Apple software designed to run on Windows.) All of these issues would be infuriating if I encountered them, but it's interesting how the breakdown of failures seems to be 50/50 "Apple doing a terrible job designing a clear and consistent UI or process" and "being bit by their attempts at locking people into their ecosystem, independent of the card" and the Goldman Sachs portion seems just outright malicious. Incompetence and malice combined are a really powerful force.

skipkey 2y ago
So I can kind of understand where the confusion comes from. I used this to buy my wife and I MacBooks last year. When I started the checkout flow I didn’t initially realize I was just applying for an Apple Card, rather than just being a loan with a fixed payment. I could see people that don’t understand how zero interest offers interact with revolving credit accounts might not have understood. But the UI is pretty clear when you make a payment, if you drop the amount under the recommended payment how much interest it’s going to cost you.
- dylan604 2y ago
  I surprised with Apple switching from their loan plans to open credit accounts. The loan plans were setup like student loans where the debt could not be wiped out with bankruptcy where open credit can.
Ensorceled 2y ago
> I'm struggling a little bit with the "misleading consumers into getting interest-free monthly payments" part. I never found the checkout flow particularly unclear or obtuse I really wish everybody who makes claims like these would go to the local library and do volunteer tech support for the elderly, poorly educated and cognitively challenged for a day. The bar for these things is not "would the average HN reader find this confusing" it is "would the average customer find this confusing". The average IQ is 100, more than half of the US population reads below the grade 6 level.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > more than half of the US population reads below the grade 6 level. I find this hard to believe.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  Agreed though "it needs to be below 6th grade reading level" would essentially invalidate every contract/license/agreement ever entered into..
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    Good! This idea that businesses should be free to fleece the stupid and under educated with obtuse contract phraseology and walls of text that have managed to include things like "the soul of your first born" because nobody can reasonably be expected read and understand the full thing is just asinine, naked failure of the government to protect people from predatory business practices. Caveat Emptor should not mean "They can make the contract literally inscrutable and then you just have to go get fucked". There's nothing wrong with reasonable consumer protections and required default warranties that CANNOT be discharged by a TOS. You shouldn't have to take a second job to understand whether you are signing away your soul when signing up for a damn credit card.
    - imchillyb 2y ago
      Legalese is about specificity. How does being less precise assist understanding with specificity? I cannot, in a contract, just refer to a street address. For reasons of specificity, I must state where the survey marker corner is located -exactly- and then detail how many feet from that in a direction, etc. These long descriptions ensure that there are no misunderstandings later. The verbiage of these contracts have grown more specific through use. People, or companies, wiggle out of things and new contract language is invented to prevent such wiggle-room in the future. How would one go about accomplishing a 'dumbing down' of a contract, without losing the anti-wiggle specificity? Also, I really like that word. Say it with me, please: 'specificity.' Neat.
microtherion 2y ago
As far as I know, Goldman Sachs didn't have previous experience issuing credit cards either, so maybe it was also (partly) incompetence on their part.

skipkey 2y ago

So I can kind of understand where the confusion comes from. I used this to buy my wife and I MacBooks last year. When I started the checkout flow I didn’t initially realize I was just applying for an Apple Card, rather than just being a loan with a fixed payment. I could see people that don’t understand how zero interest offers interact with revolving credit accounts might not have understood. But the UI is pretty clear when you make a payment, if you drop the amount under the recommended payment how much interest it’s going to cost you.

dylan604 2y ago
I surprised with Apple switching from their loan plans to open credit accounts. The loan plans were setup like student loans where the debt could not be wiped out with bankruptcy where open credit can.

Ensorceled 2y ago

> I'm struggling a little bit with the "misleading consumers into getting interest-free monthly payments" part. I never found the checkout flow particularly unclear or obtuse I really wish everybody who makes claims like these would go to the local library and do volunteer tech support for the elderly, poorly educated and cognitively challenged for a day. The bar for these things is not "would the average HN reader find this confusing" it is "would the average customer find this confusing". The average IQ is 100, more than half of the US population reads below the grade 6 level.

throwaway2037 2y ago
> more than half of the US population reads below the grade 6 level. I find this hard to believe.
steveBK123 2y ago
Agreed though "it needs to be below 6th grade reading level" would essentially invalidate every contract/license/agreement ever entered into..
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  Good! This idea that businesses should be free to fleece the stupid and under educated with obtuse contract phraseology and walls of text that have managed to include things like "the soul of your first born" because nobody can reasonably be expected read and understand the full thing is just asinine, naked failure of the government to protect people from predatory business practices. Caveat Emptor should not mean "They can make the contract literally inscrutable and then you just have to go get fucked". There's nothing wrong with reasonable consumer protections and required default warranties that CANNOT be discharged by a TOS. You shouldn't have to take a second job to understand whether you are signing away your soul when signing up for a damn credit card.
  - imchillyb 2y ago
    Legalese is about specificity. How does being less precise assist understanding with specificity? I cannot, in a contract, just refer to a street address. For reasons of specificity, I must state where the survey marker corner is located -exactly- and then detail how many feet from that in a direction, etc. These long descriptions ensure that there are no misunderstandings later. The verbiage of these contracts have grown more specific through use. People, or companies, wiggle out of things and new contract language is invented to prevent such wiggle-room in the future. How would one go about accomplishing a 'dumbing down' of a contract, without losing the anti-wiggle specificity? Also, I really like that word. Say it with me, please: 'specificity.' Neat.

microtherion 2y ago

As far as I know, Goldman Sachs didn't have previous experience issuing credit cards either, so maybe it was also (partly) incompetence on their part.