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> the idea that there can not be superiority between cultures I don't believe that. I don't even think that you believe it. Here's culture A, which believes

> the idea that there can not be superiority between cultures I don't believe that. I don't even think that you believe it. Here's culture A, which believes that there cannot be superiority between cultures. And here's culture B, which believes that there can be superiority between cultures, and in fact that B is the superior one. I'm pretty sure, based on what you said here, that you think that A is the superior culture, and that B should change into A (or at a minimum, that A should not change into B). And if you can look at, say, the culture of Denmark, and that of Afghanistan, and think that neither is superior as a culture to the other, that seems to me to be almost wilfully blind.

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potato3732842 2y ago
You're right I, here and now in 2024, don't believe it, at least not without some pretty tightly bounded limits. And when you take it to extremes like "afghans vs danes" I think it becomes clear that lot of other people also never really believed in limitless cultural tolerance and sensitivity to the same extent with which they peddled it and that there was always implied limits that were never verbalized. Funny you mention Afghanistan. I almost did in my original comment. I think Afghanistan and the people we we spent 20yr propping up there is the wedge that will drive open the door to broader discussion domestically. You can already see this starting to happen where people are getting more comfortable comparing the pros and cons of various subsets of American cultures. Will it turn into anything, IDK.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  That sounds like I misinterpreted your first comment. My apologies (I hate it when people misrepresent what I said).
notarobot123 2y ago
Accepting that the notion of "superior" has to be culturally defined (it is a value judgement), it follows that cultures will always observe other cultures as inferior or superior based on their own definitions. Cultures are fundamentally incommensurable and cannot be viewed from some abstract or neutral viewpoint. That doesn't mean to say comparison and discussion isn't informative - just not conclusive.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  > Accepting that the notion of "superior" has to be culturally defined (it is a value judgement), it follows that cultures will always observe other cultures as inferior or superior based on their own definitions. I think that's true. So when I say that Denmark is a better culture than Afghanistan, yes, I am making that judgment through the lens of western values. But as someone with four daughters, I simply cannot bend my mind far enough to consider Afghanistan's culture (or, perhaps, the Taliban's culture) as superior. (Though I admit that I might be able to if I were in the Taliban.) But what I was aiming at was mostly the idea that it is morally superior to consider all cultures as having equal value. That position contradicts itself, even if the "morally superior" part is left unstated. I will give you that all cultures have elements that are worthwhile.
  - notarobot123 2y ago
    Very well said. We can appreciate that there are a plurality of perspectives while asserting our own predispositions, preferences and value judgments (and I would share yours in this case), all without giving in to the contradictions of moral relativism.

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potato3732842 2y ago

You're right I, here and now in 2024, don't believe it, at least not without some pretty tightly bounded limits. And when you take it to extremes like "afghans vs danes" I think it becomes clear that lot of other people also never really believed in limitless cultural tolerance and sensitivity to the same extent with which they peddled it and that there was always implied limits that were never verbalized. Funny you mention Afghanistan. I almost did in my original comment. I think Afghanistan and the people we we spent 20yr propping up there is the wedge that will drive open the door to broader discussion domestically. You can already see this starting to happen where people are getting more comfortable comparing the pros and cons of various subsets of American cultures. Will it turn into anything, IDK.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
That sounds like I misinterpreted your first comment. My apologies (I hate it when people misrepresent what I said).

notarobot123 2y ago

Accepting that the notion of "superior" has to be culturally defined (it is a value judgement), it follows that cultures will always observe other cultures as inferior or superior based on their own definitions. Cultures are fundamentally incommensurable and cannot be viewed from some abstract or neutral viewpoint. That doesn't mean to say comparison and discussion isn't informative - just not conclusive.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
> Accepting that the notion of "superior" has to be culturally defined (it is a value judgement), it follows that cultures will always observe other cultures as inferior or superior based on their own definitions. I think that's true. So when I say that Denmark is a better culture than Afghanistan, yes, I am making that judgment through the lens of western values. But as someone with four daughters, I simply cannot bend my mind far enough to consider Afghanistan's culture (or, perhaps, the Taliban's culture) as superior. (Though I admit that I might be able to if I were in the Taliban.) But what I was aiming at was mostly the idea that it is morally superior to consider all cultures as having equal value. That position contradicts itself, even if the "morally superior" part is left unstated. I will give you that all cultures have elements that are worthwhile.
- notarobot123 2y ago
  Very well said. We can appreciate that there are a plurality of perspectives while asserting our own predispositions, preferences and value judgments (and I would share yours in this case), all without giving in to the contradictions of moral relativism.