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The pivotal point was when they physically moved the leaders away from the people that engineer and build the planes, ensuring the creation of a management clas

The pivotal point was when they physically moved the leaders away from the people that engineer and build the planes, ensuring the creation of a management class of employees who only cared about squeezing the working class of employees.

mmaunder 2y ago
I think this antipattern kills many engineering businesses.
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  The abstraction that is created to isolate against empathy, also isolates against functionality and longterm reality. Who knew.. certainly not the process designers..
  - mmooss 2y ago
    I haven't seen evidence, or heard people say, that engineers have more empathy. Usually the stereotype, fair or not, is the reverse. Many of the more reviled SV CEOs are engineers; many engineers openly reject humanism like it's the latest 'smart' ideological movement.
- albrewer 2y ago
  Early in my career as a brand new baby mechanical design engineer, I would have absolutely made some huge mistakes were I not able to pick up my drawings and ask a machinist with 30 years of experience if I was being an idiot or not. I learned just as much from the welders and machinists as I did from my boss.
kylecordes 2y ago
I remember when that happened, many people publicly predicted it would lead to the situation seen today.
- mmooss 2y ago
  When was that? If you remember, I'd love to see who predicted what.
  - tivert 2y ago
    I just did some Googling, and apparently they've moved their headquarters several times: 2001: Seattle to Chicago: https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/on-this-day-boeing-moves-corporate-headquarters-to-chicago-in-2001/827067193/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/on-this-day-boeing-moves-co... 2022: Chicago to Washington, DC area: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-reportedly-moving-headquarters-to-virginia/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein... 2024: Back to Seattle (maybe just the CEO and not the whole office): https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/new-boeing-ceo-seeks-restore-trust-stay-close-production-2024-08-08/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/new-boein...
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Which is part of what is so troubling about tech today, that it's ranks are filled with managers who don't build anything. His podcast role is Chief Cynic but man I love listening to Ed Zitron's Better Offline. What I'm about to link is an extremely hard & direct a polemic, especially the second about the specific people at the largest companies, but damn. It was so enervating to hear. The Shareholder Supremacy episode ties it all to Jack Welsh making everything awful forever everywhere, managing by number-goes-up. And then How Shareholders Are Destroying the Tech Industry is such a real shared anger against specific leaders, that undercuts how bad & ineffective & midling this age is, being lead by people with so little inspiration & touch with their products. https://omny.fm/shows/better-offline/the-shareholder-supremacy https://omny.fm/shows/better-offline/the-shareholder-suprema... https://omny.fm/shows/better-offline/how-shareholders-are-destroying-the-tech-industry https://omny.fm/shows/better-offline/how-shareholders-are-de... This podcast series is definitely on my world treasures list, as a how-it-really-is "histories of today" account. Also, the Daily Show keeps having some real bangers... (Covering the media coverage of McDonalds vs Enemy Within was a deep cut.) It's cathartic as hell and often remarkably informative (but also sometimes less so too).
- glenneroo 2y ago
  If you prefer to read, there is also the long-form post of Shareholder Supremacy which is IMO excellent: https://www.wheresyoured.at/tss/ https://www.wheresyoured.at/tss/

mmaunder 2y ago

I think this antipattern kills many engineering businesses.

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
The abstraction that is created to isolate against empathy, also isolates against functionality and longterm reality. Who knew.. certainly not the process designers..
- mmooss 2y ago
  I haven't seen evidence, or heard people say, that engineers have more empathy. Usually the stereotype, fair or not, is the reverse. Many of the more reviled SV CEOs are engineers; many engineers openly reject humanism like it's the latest 'smart' ideological movement.
albrewer 2y ago
Early in my career as a brand new baby mechanical design engineer, I would have absolutely made some huge mistakes were I not able to pick up my drawings and ask a machinist with 30 years of experience if I was being an idiot or not. I learned just as much from the welders and machinists as I did from my boss.

kylecordes 2y ago

I remember when that happened, many people publicly predicted it would lead to the situation seen today.

mmooss 2y ago
When was that? If you remember, I'd love to see who predicted what.
- tivert 2y ago
  I just did some Googling, and apparently they've moved their headquarters several times: 2001: Seattle to Chicago: https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/on-this-day-boeing-moves-corporate-headquarters-to-chicago-in-2001/827067193/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/on-this-day-boeing-moves-co... 2022: Chicago to Washington, DC area: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-reportedly-moving-headquarters-to-virginia/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein... 2024: Back to Seattle (maybe just the CEO and not the whole office): https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/new-boeing-ceo-seeks-restore-trust-stay-close-production-2024-08-08/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/new-boein...

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

Which is part of what is so troubling about tech today, that it's ranks are filled with managers who don't build anything. His podcast role is Chief Cynic but man I love listening to Ed Zitron's Better Offline. What I'm about to link is an extremely hard & direct a polemic, especially the second about the specific people at the largest companies, but damn. It was so enervating to hear. The Shareholder Supremacy episode ties it all to Jack Welsh making everything awful forever everywhere, managing by number-goes-up. And then How Shareholders Are Destroying the Tech Industry is such a real shared anger against specific leaders, that undercuts how bad & ineffective & midling this age is, being lead by people with so little inspiration & touch with their products. https://omny.fm/shows/better-offline/the-shareholder-supremacy https://omny.fm/shows/better-offline/the-shareholder-suprema... https://omny.fm/shows/better-offline/how-shareholders-are-destroying-the-tech-industry https://omny.fm/shows/better-offline/how-shareholders-are-de... This podcast series is definitely on my world treasures list, as a how-it-really-is "histories of today" account. Also, the Daily Show keeps having some real bangers... (Covering the media coverage of McDonalds vs Enemy Within was a deep cut.) It's cathartic as hell and often remarkably informative (but also sometimes less so too).

glenneroo 2y ago
If you prefer to read, there is also the long-form post of Shareholder Supremacy which is IMO excellent: https://www.wheresyoured.at/tss/ https://www.wheresyoured.at/tss/