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The merge of the Qualcomm architecture with the Nuvia IP they acquired, which was created under a far-reaching license ARM granted to Nuvia. Combining both crea

The merge of the Qualcomm architecture with the Nuvia IP they acquired, which was created under a far-reaching license ARM granted to Nuvia. Combining both creates a custom architecture different from ARMs consolidated and harmonized designs offered to licensees (i.e. Blackhawk or Cortex-X). The IP of Nuvia was not supposed to be used in all the use-cases that Qualcomm intends to deploy it in (and moreover there is still the ongoing legal dispute that Qualcomm is actually not allowed to use it)

deleted 2y ago
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delfinom 2y ago
So when is ARM going after Apple for their custom architecture? Afai, Q hasn't diverged from the standard instruction set at all in the Oryon snapdragons.
- dehugger 2y ago
  Presumably Apple didn't violate the terms of their own licensing agreement with ARM.
- acdha 2y ago
  Apple was a founding partner of ARM back when Advanced RISC Machines was first created and owned almost half of the company when it was created.
- gruturo 2y ago
  > So when is ARM going after Apple for their custom architecture? As soon as they violate the terms of their architectural license, which seemingly hasn't happened yet.
AlotOfReading 2y ago
The wrinkle is that nuvia's IP supposedly wasn't used here. Qualcomm set up an IP firewall during the acquisition and immediately switched the team over to doing new work under the existing Qualcomm license. It's about the right timeframe for the v2 chips at the very least.
- rickdeckard 2y ago
  That's not Qualcomm's position in court. Do you have any legitimate source for that statement? Also, the foundation of Qualcomm's "Oryon" is clearly Nuvia's "Phoenix" core, which is based on Arm’s v8.7-A ISA. After Acquisition, Qualcomm formed a team to redesign Phoenix for use in consumer-products instead of servers, creating Oryon. That's the issue they have. Qualcomm was/is confident to resolve this IP issue of the technical QCT-division via their licensing strong-arm QTL, forcing ARM into accepting Qualcomm's view. However, they possibly overstepped a bit, as they also expect that they don't need to license newer CPU-designs from ARM because (like Apple) they built a custom design under their architecture license. But in reality the core design of Oryon was in parts built under the license agreement of Nuvia, which has explicit limitations in transferability (only Nuvia as-is) and usage (only servers). In court, Qualcomm doesn't even dispute that, they argue that this contract should not be enforced and hope that the court agrees.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    Picked it up from skimming the irrational analysis piece on it today, but it looks like it's unsubstantiated speculation on oryon v2.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    In a way, the legalese details are less relevant to the industry perception of ARM as the move is seen as lighting the house on fire in attempt to win an argument. Qualcomm is the supplier of high-performance ARM-based SoCs in consumer segment, with the best performing core design. ARM is not doing damage to Qualcomm here but to ARMv8/9s long-term survival. I, for one, am greately unhappy about it because RISC-V is a disgusting design that happened to be in the right place at the right time, becoming yet another example of the industry pushing for abysmally inferior choice due to circumstantial factors. I sincerely hope it fails in all possible ways (especially the RVV extension) and a completely redone, better design that is very close to ARMv8-A takes its place. But, in the meantime, we have ARMv8/9-A, which is the best general-purpose ISA, even with the shortcomings of SVE/2, where AVX family, with especially AVX512VL extension, is just so much better.

deleted 2y ago

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delfinom 2y ago

So when is ARM going after Apple for their custom architecture? Afai, Q hasn't diverged from the standard instruction set at all in the Oryon snapdragons.

dehugger 2y ago
Presumably Apple didn't violate the terms of their own licensing agreement with ARM.
acdha 2y ago
Apple was a founding partner of ARM back when Advanced RISC Machines was first created and owned almost half of the company when it was created.
gruturo 2y ago
> So when is ARM going after Apple for their custom architecture? As soon as they violate the terms of their architectural license, which seemingly hasn't happened yet.

AlotOfReading 2y ago

The wrinkle is that nuvia's IP supposedly wasn't used here. Qualcomm set up an IP firewall during the acquisition and immediately switched the team over to doing new work under the existing Qualcomm license. It's about the right timeframe for the v2 chips at the very least.

rickdeckard 2y ago
That's not Qualcomm's position in court. Do you have any legitimate source for that statement? Also, the foundation of Qualcomm's "Oryon" is clearly Nuvia's "Phoenix" core, which is based on Arm’s v8.7-A ISA. After Acquisition, Qualcomm formed a team to redesign Phoenix for use in consumer-products instead of servers, creating Oryon. That's the issue they have. Qualcomm was/is confident to resolve this IP issue of the technical QCT-division via their licensing strong-arm QTL, forcing ARM into accepting Qualcomm's view. However, they possibly overstepped a bit, as they also expect that they don't need to license newer CPU-designs from ARM because (like Apple) they built a custom design under their architecture license. But in reality the core design of Oryon was in parts built under the license agreement of Nuvia, which has explicit limitations in transferability (only Nuvia as-is) and usage (only servers). In court, Qualcomm doesn't even dispute that, they argue that this contract should not be enforced and hope that the court agrees.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  Picked it up from skimming the irrational analysis piece on it today, but it looks like it's unsubstantiated speculation on oryon v2.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  In a way, the legalese details are less relevant to the industry perception of ARM as the move is seen as lighting the house on fire in attempt to win an argument. Qualcomm is the supplier of high-performance ARM-based SoCs in consumer segment, with the best performing core design. ARM is not doing damage to Qualcomm here but to ARMv8/9s long-term survival. I, for one, am greately unhappy about it because RISC-V is a disgusting design that happened to be in the right place at the right time, becoming yet another example of the industry pushing for abysmally inferior choice due to circumstantial factors. I sincerely hope it fails in all possible ways (especially the RVV extension) and a completely redone, better design that is very close to ARMv8-A takes its place. But, in the meantime, we have ARMv8/9-A, which is the best general-purpose ISA, even with the shortcomings of SVE/2, where AVX family, with especially AVX512VL extension, is just so much better.