2 ms·

> The data on higher minimum wages is not clear and it is not obvious it would benefit all Americans (or even the poorest Americans). You've been duped [1]. T

by jmyeet 2y ago

> The data on higher minimum wages is not clear and it is not obvious it would benefit all Americans (or even the poorest Americans). You've been duped [1]. There is an extensive scare campaign around raising the minimum wage that is motivated by one thing only: allowing the wealthy to retain more of the profits generated by their workers. That's all that's happening here. There is a well understood principle hhere too called the alienation of labor [2]. To summarize, without pushback workers will become increasingly estranged from and unable to produce the products they produce. This is ultimately bad for the corporations that are exploiting them and the society as a whole because if nobody has any money, then there are no customers for your business. Over recent decades we've extended this by invoking debt. Housing debt, student debt, medical debt, credit card debt. These are temporary patches to a system that is fundamentally exploitative. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation [2]: https://irle.berkeley.edu/publications/press-release/new-study-analyzes-impact-of-californias-20-minimum-wage-for-fast-food-workers/ https://irle.berkeley.edu/publications/press-release/new-stu...

casercaramel144 2y ago
You didn't actually argue against the point though. How is it obvious that raising the minimum wage benefits all Americans? The people making wage already don't "have any money" yet the economy is fine anyways since they don't make up the majority of spending. Debt has been high forever. Marx is right, the only thing that matters is labor + capex to create products / services. If rich people want to move money around buying expensive crap that's marginally better and isn't too much harder to produce, we should encourage that. As of now, most of the S&P 500 focuses on producing products for the common man or other businesses. This is exactly what you'd want to see and I don't see why we should rock the boat and reduce the total labor spent on the needs of the average person (minimum wage labor).
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> an extensive scare campaign around raising the minimum wage that is motivated by one thing only: allowing the wealthy to retain more of the profits generated by their workers. That's all that's happening here. This is not an honest summary of the literature. Every recent increase in the minimum wage in America has produced zero to positive local employment effects [1][2][3][4]. Per your source, however, it also causes (non-monetary) inflation [5]. Moreover, we find in other countries that there is a limit to the tactic: in France, minimum-wage increases significantly decrease employment [6]. So no, people expressing scepticism towards minimum-wage increases are being duped no more than those being told it's corporate propaganda. They're asking legitimate questions that have nuanced answers. (It's also reasonable to ask if rural Alabama might have a different minimum wage from New York City.) [1] https://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf https://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02... [2] https://www.nber.org/papers/w4509 https://www.nber.org/papers/w4509 [3] https://sp2.upenn.edu/study-increasing-minimum-wage-has-positive-effects-on-employment-in-fast-food-sector-and-other-highly-concentrated-labor-markets/ https://sp2.upenn.edu/study-increasing-minimum-wage-has-posi... [4] https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.35.1.3 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.35.1.3 [5] https://irle.berkeley.edu/publications/press-release/new-study-analyzes-impact-of-californias-20-minimum-wage-for-fast-food-workers/ https://irle.berkeley.edu/publications/press-release/new-stu... [6] https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=496a3b5a17f8ffddf4966ba1d6574c30d26d54cf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&d...
- itake 2y ago
  Item 5 seems weird to me… 1/ it pulls data from Uber eats. Many restaurants added “vanity” service charges to bills to provide visibility to the law changes. Instead of increasing menu prices, they add a mandatory service charge. I don’t know if this is accounted for in Uber eats takeout/delivery pricing 2/ most of the restaurants are fast food chains (think McDonalds). Full service business is included, but the sample size is much smaller. Even if it’s full service, the user isn’t “serviced” as these are delivery/takeout prices. 3/ the analysis is only national chain restaurants.

by jmyeet 2y ago

casercaramel144 2y ago

You didn't actually argue against the point though. How is it obvious that raising the minimum wage benefits all Americans? The people making wage already don't "have any money" yet the economy is fine anyways since they don't make up the majority of spending. Debt has been high forever. Marx is right, the only thing that matters is labor + capex to create products / services. If rich people want to move money around buying expensive crap that's marginally better and isn't too much harder to produce, we should encourage that. As of now, most of the S&P 500 focuses on producing products for the common man or other businesses. This is exactly what you'd want to see and I don't see why we should rock the boat and reduce the total labor spent on the needs of the average person (minimum wage labor).

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> an extensive scare campaign around raising the minimum wage that is motivated by one thing only: allowing the wealthy to retain more of the profits generated by their workers. That's all that's happening here. This is not an honest summary of the literature. Every recent increase in the minimum wage in America has produced zero to positive local employment effects [1][2][3][4]. Per your source, however, it also causes (non-monetary) inflation [5]. Moreover, we find in other countries that there is a limit to the tactic: in France, minimum-wage increases significantly decrease employment [6]. So no, people expressing scepticism towards minimum-wage increases are being duped no more than those being told it's corporate propaganda. They're asking legitimate questions that have nuanced answers. (It's also reasonable to ask if rural Alabama might have a different minimum wage from New York City.) [1] https://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf https://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02... [2] https://www.nber.org/papers/w4509 https://www.nber.org/papers/w4509 [3] https://sp2.upenn.edu/study-increasing-minimum-wage-has-positive-effects-on-employment-in-fast-food-sector-and-other-highly-concentrated-labor-markets/ https://sp2.upenn.edu/study-increasing-minimum-wage-has-posi... [4] https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.35.1.3 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.35.1.3 [5] https://irle.berkeley.edu/publications/press-release/new-study-analyzes-impact-of-californias-20-minimum-wage-for-fast-food-workers/ https://irle.berkeley.edu/publications/press-release/new-stu... [6] https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=496a3b5a17f8ffddf4966ba1d6574c30d26d54cf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&d...

itake 2y ago
Item 5 seems weird to me… 1/ it pulls data from Uber eats. Many restaurants added “vanity” service charges to bills to provide visibility to the law changes. Instead of increasing menu prices, they add a mandatory service charge. I don’t know if this is accounted for in Uber eats takeout/delivery pricing 2/ most of the restaurants are fast food chains (think McDonalds). Full service business is included, but the sample size is much smaller. Even if it’s full service, the user isn’t “serviced” as these are delivery/takeout prices. 3/ the analysis is only national chain restaurants.